Evidence of meeting #84 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lorne Waldman  Barrister and Solicitor, Lorne Waldman and Associates, As an Individual
John Rae  First Vice-Chair, Council of Canadians with Disabilities
Brent Diverty  Vice-President, Programs, Canadian Institute for Health Information
Michael Battista  Barrister and Solicitor, Jordan Battista LLP
Adrienne Smith  Barrister and Solicitor, Jordan Battista LLP
Maurice Tomlinson  Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network
Meagan Johnston  Staff Lawyer, HIV & AIDS Legal Clinic Ontario
Mercedes Benitez  As an Individual
Toni Schweitzer  Staff Lawyer, Parkdale Community Legal Services
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Erica Pereira

November 20th, 2017 / 8:20 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

I have a very brief comment for Ms. Schweitzer. Welcome.

Both my wife and I are Parkdale alumni, and thank you for your advocacy over the last four decades.

With respect to your comments relating to the legality of this provision, it still hasn't gone to the Supreme Court for adjudication, if I recall.

8:25 p.m.

Staff Lawyer, Parkdale Community Legal Services

Toni Schweitzer

It hasn't. Whether or not this provision is constitutionally sound has not gone before the Supreme Court of Canada.

The issue that went before the Supreme Court of Canada, which was in the Hilewitz decision, had to do with whether or not people were having what could be considered individualized assessments, and it lead to this process that both Ms. Smith and Mr. Battista have talked about, the mitigation plans.

The court did not directly address the issue of the constitutionality.

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

With respect to the mitigation plan, what other options are available other than repealing this particular provision?

How do you ensure that those cases are adjudicated in a manner that takes into account the reality that currently exists with excessive demand? How do you do that without repealing that particular provision?

8:25 p.m.

Staff Lawyer, Parkdale Community Legal Services

Toni Schweitzer

I don't have any suggestions, actually.

I think that the law discriminates, and the numbers that have been provided as a justification are arbitrary and inaccurate. It appears even that senior officials are not aware of some of the things that are being done by decision-makers. That's a situation that is unacceptable.

I don't know what else I could say to that. I can say that the system as it stands is unacceptable and shouldn't continue.

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Whalen.

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

Thank you very much.

Thank you all for coming tonight. I'm not sure if you've been listening to some of the previous testimony that we've had, but there have been a lot of misgivings from all of us here about excessive demand and why we are quantifying individuals in this way. We don't do it in any other aspect of our lives. I just want to be clear with each of you about exactly what the ask is, or what the recommendation is regarding repeal.

I want to confirm that you're not asking us to repeal paragraphs 38(1)(a) and 38(1)(b) with regard to dangers to public health and public safety. It's just paragraph 38(1)(c), which is with respect to excessive demand—or if you are asking for repeal of all, please provide some explanation. Maybe we could just run down the table starting with Mr. Tomlinson.

8:25 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network

Maurice Tomlinson

Paragraph 38(1)(c) is what we wish to see repealed. Excessive—

8:25 p.m.

Staff Lawyer, Parkdale Community Legal Services

Toni Schweitzer

I may be speaking out of turn, but I think he probably can speak for all of us.

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

Nick Whalen Liberal St. John's East, NL

That's wonderful.

In previous meetings, we talked about the prices. Whatever the prices are, when you take all of the costs associated with Canadian health care into account, it's a giant insurance scheme. Some people are healthy and some are not. We try to get by as best we can. We have immigrants who are coming into our country. Some are healthy and some are not. They're human beings. I'm not sure what else to say other than that.

Thank you very much for your testimony today.

That's the end of my question.

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

All right.

Did you want to ask another question, Ms. Kwan?

8:25 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

If I may, Mr. Chair, I will just put on the record that, at my office, I have received over a thousand letters or emails regarding this issue, calling for the government to repeal the excessive demand provision. I want to get this on record, and I would be happy to give a sample of those emails to the clerk so that we can register this. I suppose I could print out a thousand copies for you, but maybe—

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

I would sooner not.

8:25 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

—I'll just do it that way.

I want that on the record, if I may.

Thank you.

8:25 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network

Maurice Tomlinson

If I may, Chair, I would also like to say on the record that Canada is behind nearly a dozen countries that have no excessive demand provision. These are countries that, as was repeatedly said, we are competing with for talent. Most of Scandinavia, our friends to the south, the U.K., Ireland, and many other countries have no such provision, and they seem to be getting on quite fine.

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

We'll get information on that, I'm sure.

We're going to end this part of the meeting and take a brief moment to show our witnesses out. It's not an in camera meeting, but we have some business we need to do following this. I would like to resume as quickly as possible once we've done that.

Thank you, witnesses.

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

We're going to call the meeting back to order.

Just before we get into the business portion of the meeting, I'll note that there was a request from Ms. Kwan for a copy of a 2004 baseline study upon which the rates were set and then increased through inflation and experience over the time. I think it would be very good for our committee to have it before the minister is here; however, it is available in English only, and it is about 50 pages.

I'm going to seek unanimous consent to have it before the committee, knowing that we would have French translation immediately following as soon as it's available—just to have that available for people to understand. I am going to seek unanimous consent on that.

8:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

We recognize this as an exception and that all the documents will be bilingual, and it will come hopefully as quickly as possible. We're doing a compressed study, so I think it is an exception.

Mr. Anandasangaree.

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Is this the one and only time for this exception?

8:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Yes, the exception is noted by that.

We're going to continue our discussion.

At the end of the last meeting, Ms. Rempel presented a motion. I can't tell from the blues who actually had the floor at the end of the meeting, so I'm going to turn it to Ms. Rempel.

8:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

As a point of order, Mr. Chair, is this component of the meeting being televised?

8:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Yes, we're continuing.

8:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

My understanding is that right now it's not being televised on ParlVU. It said that the meeting was suspended.

8:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

We're not in camera. We're continuing as normal, but we also have people who may need to leave. I don't know.

8:35 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Erica Pereira

We're on.