Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 21st, 2021

[Erin Rooney]

I can answer that.

Many employers in our region are now looking to attract immigrants who live in other regions, and I must say that it's very candidate-driven as well. Candidates from all over Canada who are foreign nationals are looking at the 11 communities participating in the RNIP and are seeing those as desirable places to move.

Our pilot specifically—because we're attracting priority sectors—is seeing people who graduate from other programs in Ontario and in Vancouver and who see the desirability of moving to our region where our housing and insurance are less expensive. It's attractive to newcomers, as well, to move out of bigger cities. There's less pollution. We have beautiful wildlife and nature opportunities, so it is a really attractive place to live.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Mr. Regan, it's your turn now.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dhaliwal and Madam Chair.

Mr. Hadhad, it's nice to have you with us.

[Tareq Hadhad]

Thank you.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

You're one of many examples of newcomers to Nova Scotia, the Atlantic region and Canada who have come here and have new eyes and good skills and have created economic activity benefiting their area. You're also, I think, benefiting by spreading peace and kindness.

I am pleased, as a former StFX student from a few years ago, to know that the StFX students not only can go to The Wheel to get their pizza still, but can also get some great treats from Peace By Chocolate, and I can get them all across the country in stores as well. That's wonderful.

[Tareq Hadhad]

Thank you.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Let me ask you this. We know that global migration has been upended by the pandemic. Despite that, Canada still has some of the highest numbers of any country when it comes to resettling refugees and Minister Mendicino just announced three new measures, including a private sponsorship program and increasing the number of protected persons allowed into Canada this year from 23,500 to 45,000. How do you think these initiatives can be used to encourage people to settle in rural communities, as you have?

[Tareq Hadhad]

To be honest, Mr. Regan, thank you so much for the kind remarks, but when I came to Canada, I didn't know anything about Canada other than what was called “the MTV”, which was Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver. There's a huge lack of awareness in the immigrant community about rural cities and rural towns and the quality of life that these spaces can offer.

I also have to mention that rural places in Canada have the same services that big cities can offer. I was so surprised. Compared to other countries like those in the Middle East, and in Syria, where I come from, if you are in a rural place, your chances to get health care, to get to a hospital, to get medication, to get to school and to get to university are very rare, while in Canada all of those services are the same. This is what immigrants don't know.

At the end of the day, I think most immigrants will tend to go to regions and small towns when they feel that they are welcome, that they are home, and that's what Antigonish has offered to me. I really hope that big and small Canadian towns can work together to advance these amazing initiatives by the federal, provincial and municipal governments to make sure that immigrants have the resources they need and are aware that they exist already. I think more immigrants will be willing to stay in rural areas, compared to big cities, if they already know about the services.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Hadhad. Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Madame Normandin.

Madame Normandin, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I will also take the time to thank the witnesses for being so patient and staying with us. We are grateful to them.

Mr. Agop, I have a first question for you about the entrepreneurial acquisition program that you were suggesting. What would you think of the idea of awarding extra points for acquiring a business in the regions?

[Agop Evereklian]

Thank you for your question.

Yes, that could be a very good idea. I would like to add that most investor immigrants favour the regions because they find the quality of life is better and the chances of success are greater, because they face less competition and have many more opportunities.

So yes, I welcome that suggestion, Ms. Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Hadhad.

First of all, we're very sorry that we can't taste your chocolates, especially since a little bit of sugar would have been good for us members and would have been welcome in the final stage of the meeting.

You talked about services in the regions. In terms of entrepreneurial development, do you feel that for that as well, there are as many services in the regions as there are in the city?

You would think that cities would provide more business support and have larger welcome communities to help entrepreneurs start their businesses.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the differences between cities and regions.

[Tareq Hadhad]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

I will answer in English.

The services in rural communities are very much about education and about ESL or French as a second language classes. It's all about integration. It's all about the committees within the sponsorship agreement holders that are now across the country.

I think what we were lucky to find in a space like Antigonish were people who were willing to give their time, energy and efforts to help us restart our lives, because small towns need immigrants, and they want them to be retained. They want them to stay. They don't want to give them the first year or two and then see them leave for the big city.

Certainly, attracting immigrants to small towns is the goal for every Canadian town with aging populations, and there is not so much labour in small towns. Even for us, in starting a business in a small town like Antigonish, Peace By Chocolate now offers tens of jobs, and some of those jobs stay on the market for over two months with no one to apply, because so many people actually leave these small towns for the cities.

What we are trying to do right now is to spread our story much more, so that immigrants know first-hand that they can find their opportunity. The second thing is that our family, when they came here, did not speak English. I was the only English speaker. They were so attracted to a big city like Montreal that they could have left within a few months to find an Arabic-speaking community, but they took a chance, and that chance was not taken by themselves but by all of the community that has supported us since then.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you for your comprehensive response.

I have a question for Professor Blit.

You talked about the fact that the country doesn't necessarily benefit from immigration. As an immigrant, are there more benefits to be gained from immigration to the regions? For example, do you have statistics about lower unemployment rates for immigrants in the regions and better wages for immigrants in the regions?

I'd like you to tell me what the regions can do for immigrants, rather than what immigrants can do for the regions.

[Joel Blit]

Thank you very much, Ms. Normandin.

I will answer you in English, if you don't mind, as I studied in French a long time ago.

I think the question is, and correct me if I'm wrong, is whether immigrants going to smaller centres make their contributions, and whether those centres also help immigrants be more successful.

The evidence is very scarce in this respect. We have very little evidence. The only evidence is probably from the provincial nominee programs. I can't tell you by heart exactly what all of that evidence is. My sense is that the immigrants who tended to settle in more remote areas outside of the big cities tended to do better—at least initially—than the ones in the bigger cities, but over time, those two paths sort of converge.

That's my feeling. If you wanted more details, I'd have to dig up some literature and try to get that to you. There really isn't that much evidence, and that's why I think it's great that you guys are running a pilot to find out about those outcomes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Blit. I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate you on the quality of your French, which is very good.

I have another question. In addition to the economic characteristics of immigration, should we also focus on other factors such as maintaining schools?

When there are not enough kids in schools, they close them. Immigration also helps keep schools open and some communities vibrant. Do we need to analyze those factors as well?

[Joel Blit]

Again, that's a hard question to answer. In general, immigrants—my own parents, for example—tend to make less than Canadians do and intend to use government services at about the same rate or a little bit more. If you look at it from that perspective, in terms of income from the government, if you make more money, you pay more taxes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Please wind up as you're running out of time.

[Joel Blit]

I would say in net terms, it's not clear that it would be a big benefit from immigration.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

We will now end our round of questioning with Ms. Kwan, for six minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

I'd like to direct my question to Mr. Syed Hussan. You spoke about migrant workers and the need for all of them to have status. In this context, we're trying to get an understanding of the impact of migrant workers in rural and northern communities.

Could you share with us what some of the challenges are that they face in those communities?

[Syed Hussan]

Absolutely. I want to reiterate that we do have migration to rural communities by temporary migrants. We need to understand the whole picture and not just part of it.

The fundamental issue is that people are unable to assert or access their labour rights, health care, education, social services entitlements, and so on. All of those are about the fact that migrant and undocumented people don't have permanent resident status. They don't have the power to enforce their rights.

The second issue is that permanent residency programs are extremely exclusionary as I detailed already.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Regarding the question about retention, what do you think the government should do to to get people to stay in rural and northern communities? What's your advice to the government?

[Syed Hussan]

It's very simple. The people already there, who are in some cases staying for decades, don't have permanent residency rights. They can't bring their families and can't put down roots. The simplest thing to do is to give permanent resident status to people who are already there on temporary permits.

That is why I brought up Thunder Bay. They presented here at the last session. As I mentioned, there were 3,300 new permits issued just in 2018. The same is true across the country. Thousands of temporary residents are moving into those communities and could just as easily be settled. That means primarily making it easier for people to have permanent residency status by giving it to them immediately.

Now, when we think about the existing program, this devolution of the immigration system first to regional values, we're not actually able to actually monitor it, and thus not able to enforce rights.

As I mentioned, there are so many issues around employer control and employer-dependent programs. For example, in the Atlantic provinces, a lot of the work is seasonal. We see employers—because to get into these programs they have to show one year of full-time work that is non-seasonal—writing letters for workers, saying that they are there on a one-year contract. Then, for those four months when the season is off, the workers aren't working, they're not being paid, and they're not going on EI, because they have to show that they are full time and permanent.

The system is allowing for exploitation. With any program that relies so heavily on job offers with conditions around employers, the employers have the opportunity, and some will use that opportunity, to exploit. That's the problem.

That adds to the already existing labour exploitation in the migrant streams. That is why I read into the record the names of eight people who have died just in the last three months, all of them in rural communities, who are migrant workers. That's what we need to talk about. Those are the immigrants in rural communities, and they are literally dying. Seven of them died under federal quarantine rules, which means under the purview of this committee and the federal government.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I recently heard from some migrant worker advocates, who tell me that in the rural and northern communities, many of the migrant workers can't even access or apply for the recently announced stream for migrant workers. They don't have access to technology or supports to make the application for permanent residence.

What are your thoughts on that?