Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 12th, 2022

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

One of the issues I have with the argument you've laid out is that there's a real challenge. You've suggested to just close things down. I don't know if that means you would put a structure in the way.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Minister, they will apply at the border crossings once you have decided to suspend the agreement. That is obvious. Everyone knows it.

The Association québécoise des avocats et avocates en droit de l'immigration, or AQAADI, is asking you to do this, because it would not only be easier for the RCMP and the Government of Quebec, whose intake capacity has been reached, but it would also be more humane for the asylum seekers. Instead of going through the back door, they would go through the front door at a border crossing.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I appreciate your point of view, but I think you may be ignoring one of the series of problems that approach would create. The border with the United States is very long, and there are many other points where a person could simply enter. There are fields all along the border that a person could move through.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Minister, how long has the agreement been in existence? It has been in existence since 2004. How did we proceed before it was adopted? There were international agreements with Canada. Asylum seekers went through border crossings, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, I'm sorry for interrupting. I have stopped the clock. All the comments should be directed through the chair, and we should allow the minister to answer the questions.

I will start the clock back and you can start.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair. The minister is also my friend, and I like him a lot.

Before the agreement was adopted, there were international agreements. People went through the border crossings and made their applications there. Why would it be different if Canada suspended the agreement?

Everyone says—except your government, of course—that the problem is that this agreement is not suspended.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Look, even if you speak to the UNHCR, they would still insist that the principle of safety of countries is really important. When you're looking at humanitarian resettlement and asylum seekers, it's important that we provide regular venues for people to seek refuge and protection from the violence they are fleeing, but it's not the same thing as an ordinary, say, economic immigration program, where a person would be able to say this is the country I would like to come to. It's a different stream of immigration altogether.

The circumstance that you have just laid out would potentially create a circumstance where it would become an unmanageable volume of people who would be seeking to come in for the purpose of seeking asylum, and I don't think that's the best or most effective way to actually manage the situation.

I also think if you, without putting the proper thought into place....

I'm sorry. I see you're trying to jump in.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Minister, are you telling me that before this agreement was signed, in 2004, the situation was unmanageable?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting.

Your time is up, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

No, things were going very well.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Madam Chair, maybe I'll take 10 seconds.

I think everyone will acknowledge that there needs to be improvements to the situation. With the provincial government in Quebec, we both work to make sure that we can help cover the cost of housing and health care for people who come across—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

What they are asking you—

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Hold on for one moment.

Also, we are working to reach a long-term solution with the United States that actually improves the situation on a go-forward basis. These are things we're engaged with and will continue to work on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for the interruption. The time is up.

Before we go to the next member, a reminder to all the members and the witnesses that all the questions should be directed through the chair. Once you ask the question, please give an opportunity to the witnesses to answer the question. Only one person should speak at a time.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you will have six minutes. You can go ahead, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the minister for coming back to our committee and to his officials as well.

I'm getting increasingly worried about the fact that I think IRCC's system is overwhelmed and unable to cope with the situation. GAC referred Afghan files to IRCC and it appears that they're lost in the system. Afghan lawyers who worked with the Canadian embassy have referred 28 files to IRCC. To date, they have not received a response from IRCC—no invitation and no G numbers. Representatives following this case just contacted IRCC last week around this. They were told that they need to ask GAC to resubmit those referrals. That was from IRCC officials.

Why is IRCC asking GAC to resubmit these applications? Are they lost in the system?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thanks for the question.

I don't have any reason to believe that any files are lost in the system. Without speaking to the specifics of individual cases, I think you're hitting on an issue that I can try my best to provide some clarity on.

Prior to the last federal election, we made a decision to resettle 20,000 Afghan refugees. Subsequently, we campaigned on a commitment to increase that number to 40,000. Bear with me for 30 seconds. There has been a significant number beyond the 20,000 who have now been formally brought into the process. The total of those 40,000 spaces is not yet filled. That will be filled after we get these referrals from folks.

I expect that everyone who will be brought into the program—or who have reached out and will not be brought into the program—will have an answer in a very short period of time. I'm guessing it will be in the next few weeks.

I did have the opportunity to speak with a representative of the group that you referred to, just a few days ago. I anticipate that, within a matter of weeks, there will be clarity for all of those who've reached out seeking to become part of the program.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

It troubles me, the very fact that IRCC has asked for those files to be resubmitted. The minister says the files are not lost. If they're not lost, why is IRCC asking for those files to be resubmitted?

We also just heard from the Department of National Defence that they submitted 3,800 files to IRCC by way of referrals. These are individual Afghans whose files have been verified by the Department of National Defence. They advise that only 900 of them have been accepted.

What's happened to the other files?

The minister says not to worry, that they'll get to it. Meanwhile, media reports are indicating that people are being tortured. Afghan interpreters—those with enduring relationships to Canada—are being captured by the Taliban and tortured. Every second of the day counts for the lives of these individuals.

I am absolutely astounded with the process here. If the files are not misplaced or lost, or if somehow IRCC officials can find them, why are they asking for them to be resubmitted?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I share your perspective on the need to act in a substantial and urgent way. I remind folks that although I said 12,600, another plane arrived yesterday and there are approximately 12,900 people who are here. There is another plane—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm sorry, Minister. I don't need those numbers. I need you to answer the question, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Speak one person at a time.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think the public needs these numbers. This is really important.

People coming through the special immigration measures are landing here tomorrow as well. There are going to be more flights more or less every week.

Yes, there are people who may have made a contribution whom we are going to continue to bring here, but in terms of DND referrals, 3,470 people are in Canada now under the special immigration streams that came from DND. Another 2,956 have been approved. The total number of SIM applicants who are actually in Canada—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt the minister for a second here.

Saying how many people have come, versus how many applications, is completely different. We know, for example, that the former interpreters have submitted 300 applications, for a total of 5,000 people amongst those. Using those numbers does not actually answer the question. I'm sorry, Minister.

Please, the answer that I'm looking for is why the IRCC is asking people to resubmit their files if they're not lost. If the minister can't answer that question, I ask him to ponder it and submit an answer to the committee, because I don't want to hear numbers again.

I need to get on with my next question.

In terms of discrepancy in treatment, I have a file on a situation where people asked the UNHCR for a referral. That was back in March and they got an appointment for June 14. They told the UNHCR that they couldn't wait because their visa would expire in Pakistan. Meanwhile, in a similar case, they went directly to the high commission of Canada and they were processed.

How is it possible that there could be discrepancies of this magnitude in the treatment of files?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

One of the things that's a real challenge when we're dealing with our refugee resettlement initiatives is that, when we rely on referral partners, sometimes they're facing unique pressures that are beyond the control of the Government of Canada.

UNHCR's capacity in the region, if I go back to the timeline that you were talking about, was only starting to ramp up around the end of the first quarter of this particular year. Depending on where a person goes, which referral partner they use, the timelines that those third parties are working with can vary significantly.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Then why on the website is the government telling people to go to the UNHCR for a referral? Instead, they could have gone to the high commission for a much quicker turnaround. Why don't they put it on the website? Why don't they tell people to go to the high commission?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There are a number of different referral partners that we work with, and the UNHCR has referred millions of people and given refugee status determination around the world and in the region. We have a number of different partners that we work with, and depending on which stream you're coming through and your potential eligibility, who you go to may vary based on the nature of why you would be a qualified applicant for Canada's Afghan refugee resettlement programs.