Evidence of meeting #36 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was desloges.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Stephanie Bond
Chantal Desloges  Senior Partner, Desloges Law Group, As an Individual
Mark Ballard  Vice-Chairperson, Syria-Antigonish Families Embrace
Vilma Pagaduan  Settlement Counselor, The Neighbourhood Organization

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Good afternoon, everybody. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 36 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Today we're continuing our study on application backlogs and processing times.

I would like to welcome our witnesses for today. Each witness will have five minutes for their opening remarks.

Today, we are joined by three witnesses. We are joined by Chantal Desloges, senior partner at the Desloges Law Group. She is not a stranger to this committee. She has been here a few times. Welcome. We are also joined by Mark Ballard, vice-chairperson of Syria-Antigonish Families Embrace. Our third witness for today is Vilma Pagaduan, a settlement counsellor representing The Neighbourhood Organization.

Welcome to all our witnesses. Each one of you will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

We will start with Ms. Desloges. You have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please begin.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

I have a point of order. I'm sorry for interrupting the witness.

I believe the Standing Orders require us to elect a new vice-chair.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I apologize to the witnesses. We have to do some routine proceedings. We have some new members in the committee. I will take a moment—I should have done that before—to welcome them.

I would like to welcome Mr. Tom Kmiec to the committee. Mr. Larry Maguire, welcome back to CIMM. Welcome, Mrs. Gallant.

We need to elect a new vice-chair, as Mr. Hallan, who was the vice-chair, is no longer part of the committee.

Madam Clerk, please conduct the election for the vice-chair of this committee.

October 18th, 2022 / 3:55 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Stephanie Bond

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Honourable members of the committee, I must inform members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of vice-chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, cannot entertain points of order, nor participate in debate.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the first vice-chair must be a member of the official opposition.

I am now prepared to receive motions for the first vice-chair.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Clerk, I would like to nominate Brad Redekopp.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

I'll second it.

3:55 p.m.

The Clerk

It has been moved by Mr. Kmiec that Mr. Redekopp be elected as first vice-chair of the committee.

Are there any further motions?

Seeing none, is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

3:55 p.m.

The Clerk

I declare the motion carried and Mr. Redekopp duly elected first vice-chair of the committee.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Madam Clerk.

I congratulate Mr. Redekopp on being elected as the first vice-chair of this committee. It was a very hard-fought election. It has always been great having you at the committee, and I look forward to working with you as the vice-chair of this committee.

We can begin with our witnesses. I'm sorry for the delay.

Please begin, Ms. Desloges. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

3:55 p.m.

Chantal Desloges Senior Partner, Desloges Law Group, As an Individual

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

As a lawyer specializing in immigration law for more than 25 years, processing delays have been a thorn in my side for virtually my entire adult life, but I have never seen the situation this bad.

The impacts of delay that I have seen personally in my own practice over the last few years have been heartbreaking—marriages breaking down, two-year-old children who have never met their fathers, clients having mental breakdowns and experiencing financial ruin.

I’d like to focus today on identifying two causes and two solutions. To put it in a nutshell, my view is that two of the biggest causes of processing delays and application backlogs are, number one, outdated and ineffective IT systems and, number two, a culture of secrecy.

Decades of lack of investment into IT infrastructure by governments of both political stripes left IRCC very flat-footed when the pandemic hit. With all the technology available to us tody, there simply was no effective emergency plan put in place to deal with the work-from-home situation, no effective plan put in place for how to interview applicants remotely.

To its credit, IRCC is now pushing toward online processing, which is very laudable. However, it seems that every new online system is full of glitches, to the point where we lawyers are actively resisting the move to mandatory online processing because, frankly, it is nothing short of a dumpster fire. It is characterized by disappearing data and almost daily system-wide crashes. We can surely do better.

IRCC's culture of secrecy is another major factor. My colleague Kareem El-Assal testified about this before you recently, and I can only say that I agree with him in his comments on the lack of transparency.

Let me show you how secrecy breeds delay though a very typical example that happens in my office every day. A file has exceeded its processing times, and we don’t know why. Government instructions tell us to send a web form inquiry. We do it, but either it doesn’t get answered at all, or we get a nonsense response that tells us nothing, usually more than four weeks later, which is way too late to be useful. Then that forces us to go and bother the good folks at the case management branch. Sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn’t.

Then we have to bother you, members of Parliament, which, again, sometimes helps and sometimes doesn't. Then we're forced to bother the Access to Information Office. That takes months, which doesn’t really help us. As a last resort, we're then forced to go to the Federal Court and bother the Federal Court and the Department of Justice through litigation.

You can quickly see how this goes exponential very fast, and it ends up making a lot more work for everyone, including IRCC. It’s a waste of valuable resources at every level. If we could just get a clear reply the first time, we wouldn't have to do any of this.

My colleague Mario Bellissimo testified in front of this committee in May, and he proposed the idea of an ombudsperson. I certainly support that idea, but wouldn’t it be nice if we could simply communicate with one another clearly and on time so that we didn’t need one?

Even if all of these problems could be fixed overnight, what do we do with this massive backlog? Two things I think could give immediate relief.

First, switch all non-security-related interviews to video. It should be the default. That way, officers in any location in the world could conduct interviews without being limited by geography or logistics. If the refugee protection division can make life-and-death decisions on credibility assessments judged by video, surely we can manage administrative interviews in the same way.

Second, take all of the borderline cases and simply waive the interviews and push those cases through, in the interest of getting through a large volume of cases quickly. Yes, that will mean that a few people will get through the system who shouldn’t have, but frankly, at this point it is the cost of doing business because the damage that's being imposed by the backlog far outweighs any potential damage that could be caused by the odd person who gets erroneously approved.

In closing, I would also encourage a closer look at what did work. For example, humanitarian and compassionate processing actually improved during COVID. It's the only line of business I’m aware of that got faster instead of slower. I want to acknowledge them for doing an excellent job during very difficult times. What did they do differently? Looking at examples of success like that could yield some helpful clues for all of us.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Mr. Mark Ballard, vice-chairperson, Syria-Antigonish Families Embrace.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please begin.

4 p.m.

Mark Ballard Vice-Chairperson, Syria-Antigonish Families Embrace

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak in front of the committee.

One thing you should know is that our group is a SAH and a constituency group based in Antigonish, a small group of 12 volunteers. We've brought in 23 Syrian families or assisted in their settlement, and continue to do that. We've also assisted in starting the Afghan process as well.

What we're finding with regard to the application processing—and we would like to table a recommendation for dealing with the backlog of application processing—is that there is a huge problem with consistency. We've had issues in the recent past where it's taken five months to simply achieve a G number, which is the starting process for a refugee to be put into the system and be worked upon. This happened just last week, and we put in the application successfully in May. This is something that we really see needs to have focus; it needs to have more people to process, and more funding in the actual processing of the paperwork.

The second recommendation—I think we've heard it already—is communication. The policy, processes and standards that we see need to be focused on, need to be enhanced. We see that there's a huge amount of anxiety that gets built up with refugee families, with family reunification, with the SAHs and support groups that are trying to bring people into Canada. The families and the refugees are in untenable circumstances. We have the same issues. We find that we go to ROC-O, and we get some information—we may or may not. It may be value-added, or it may not be. We are asked to reach out to embassies, which more often than not do not respond, or when they do, it's a canned response.

Then it leaves us going to the member of Parliament. In our case, we're lucky it's the minister's office, and we work through that process to try to expedite some of these communication issues. It's ongoing. We've had a situation where a family had a house rented for them for at least 10 months—everything was in order, we were told—and we had to give up the house because of the huge cost of donated dollars to maintain this house. The family just came in last year, and it was two years ago that we had to give up that house.

The final recommendation that we look at is to try to look at a rural resettlement model. We are the only rural SAH in Nova Scotia, and we continue down the road of challenging aspects of resettlement in Nova Scotia. We see that the funding is metro-centric—or I should say it's based upon the urban centres—and we really struggle with that form of funding. ISANS, the Nova Scotia immigration services, is 75% federally funded, and we've tried to have people come to Antigonish to support our region, but it's not happening. We've developed a rural model that we've presented to the minister, as well as to the local MLA and municipal folks, to try to look at the situation so that we can be less reactive—which is what we are all the time, it seems, now—and more proactive in supporting English language, medical, employment and settlement.

These are the recommendations that we would like to put forward. Thank you for taking the opportunity to listen today to SAFE.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Mr. Ballard, for your opening remarks.

We will proceed to Ms. Vilma Pagaduan, settlement counsellor from The Neighbourhood Organization.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please begin.

4:05 p.m.

Vilma Pagaduan Settlement Counselor, The Neighbourhood Organization

Thank you so much for inviting me. Good afternoon, everyone.

The processing times for all immigration programs have consistently been updated by the IRCC, but the caregiver program's processing time has never been updated. This indicates that the caregiver program is not a priority and is being disregarded. Equity should be the goal in this case.

I would like to recommend that IRCC consider issuing an open work permit for all those applications that have been sitting in the system for years and years. Canada needs caregivers now. In order to reduce the processing time, let the caregiver come to Canada as a permanent resident. Forcing caregivers to be tied to one employer creates opportunity for exploitative working conditions.

I would also like to recommend that IRCC look into the express entry program. Modification of this express entry program will make it possible for caregivers or migrant workers who are also working in the greenhouses across Canada to have a route to permanent residency. In the introduction of the TR to PR pathway last year, most of the international students were able to apply for the PR, but not the caregivers and the migrant workers working in greenhouses. It was because of the COVID-19 restrictions during that time. Community centres, libraries and organizations like ours were closed because of the restrictions. Opening a new or similar TR to PR pathway will give them an opportunity to apply for PR.

For caregivers applying for permanent residency, the English-language proficiency and university degree criteria should be eliminated, or at least reduced to CLB level 4 and secondary education. Caregivers, once in Canada, will gain their English proficiency. IRCC officers should also consider or accept the band score of CLB level 4 once that band score is achieved. It doesn't matter if it isn't a perfect equivalency. We've seen a lot of refusal. Even though the applicants met the CLB level 5 band score, they were still refused because they did not meet the perfect equivalency of CLB level 5.

I would also like to recommend that IRCC create a specific PR portal for the caregiver program. For consistency in their assessments, make sure that the officers are trained in this program and are familiar with it. In order to fill out information, increase the number of characters in the boxes in the PR portal. Enhance the portal's uploading system, which now rejects files because they are too large or do not support the IRCC tech system.

I would also like to recommend regularization for all migrant workers and caregivers. Create a unique humanitarian scheme where caregivers or migrant workers who might not be eligible can apply for permanent residency. Reduce the demands and create an amnesty program for them.

I would also like to recommend that IRCC remove the cap per program for the home support and home child care programs, or at least increase the number of PR applications for caregivers within the immigration levels.

I would also like to recommend removing the two-year work experience requirement through the caregiver program. No other economic program stream forces people to work for two years before they can obtain permanent residency. The program should be more equitable for our immigration stream, including the caregiver program.

Recognize, also, the importance of the work done by caregivers and avoid labelling them as low-skilled workers. Caregivers are those individuals who look after the most important people in our lives: our parents, our children. They are highly skilled in soft skills and so they must be a top priority in the immigration industry.

I would also like to strongly recommend that IRCC provide outright an open work permit for the principal applicants and dependants who are also applying from outside Canada.

I would also like to recommend the elimination of LMIA processing if the applicant is in Canada and applying for a renewal of a work permit. Most of the caregivers who are not able to provide new LMIAs to renew their work permit are losing their status.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Vilma, could you please wind up?

4:10 p.m.

Settlement Counselor, The Neighbourhood Organization

Vilma Pagaduan

Okay.

This is because most of the employers are not willing to pay for another LMIA. If the IRCC could eliminate the second LMIA processing, it would be a lot easier for caregivers to renew their work permits and be able to work legally in Canada.

Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will now proceed with our round of questioning. Our first round will be for six minutes.

Mr. Redekopp, you have six minutes for your round of questioning. Please begin.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today and for sharing their stories with us.

I want to start with you, Ms. Desloges. You used the interesting phrase of “dumpster fire” when you were referring to the IT infrastructure underfunding. You talked about online “glitches”. Could you give us a bit more detail on the online glitches? You said you've gone so far as to not want to use the system because of it. I'm curious; maybe you could expand a little bit more on why.

4:10 p.m.

Senior Partner, Desloges Law Group, As an Individual

Chantal Desloges

Sure. Basically, there's a multiplicity of different online systems and different portals that you have to use to upload applications nowadays. They're very buggy and very glitchy. Whenever you try to upload an application, not only do you have, as one of the other witnesses talked about, very small file sizes that cause you to spend hours decreasing the file so that you can actually upload it, but you also have timeouts and system crashes. You get 30 minutes into uploading something and all of a sudden all of your data disappears.

It's very common and it's across the board. All of the lawyers are talking about this problem. It's at the point now where an organization I'm involved with actually started a Twitter campaign to tell the government that it's unfair to expect us to go to a mandatory online system—

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Desloges. The bells are ringing.

We have 30-minute bells ringing for a vote. I need unanimous consent to continue the meeting, or we can stop. If everyone is voting online, we can stop five minutes before and allow every member to cast their vote.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Madam Chair, no. You need unanimous consent. I decline to give unanimous consent.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Okay.

We don't have unanimous consent. We will have to stop the meeting here, as the bells are ringing.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Madam Chair, I just want to ask a quick question of the clerk.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

We don't have unanimous consent to continue the meeting. As the bells are ringing and as I don't have unanimous consent to continue, we will have to stop the meeting and come back once the members have voted.

The meeting is suspended. We will come back after the vote is done.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I call the meeting back to order.

We were in the round of questioning when the meeting was suspended and Mr. Redekopp was asking the questions. We were at one minute and 19 seconds.

We will resume, Mr. Redekopp.