Evidence of meeting #41 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was refugees.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rema Jamous Imseis  Representative to Canada, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees
Appolonie Simbizi  Secretary General, Alliance des Burundais du Canada
Janet McFetridge  Mayor of Champlain, New York, Plattsburgh Cares
Azadeh Tamjeedi  Senior Legal Officer and Head of Protection Unit, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

November 15th, 2022 / 3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON

For the record and factual information, that information is collected by three departments. It is already online and posted on the 20th of every month. What you're asking for is the 5th, and what you're saying is that you're okay that we, as a government, and you, as a member of Parliament, are aware that we may post information—because of the length of the information we need to gather—that will be wrong. I'm sorry, but I don't think that's the kind of government Canadians want to see.

With all due respect, what we're asking for is a friendly amendment, as the information is already widely available. In Mr. Maguire's motion, I'm asking for consideration for our hard-at-work public servants, who will need, from three departments, to collect, aggregate that data and then make sure that it's posted for all of us to see.

I don't think it was wrong for me to ask for this amendment in terms of making sure that the information is factually relevant.

We have to make sure that information is relevant, but also verified.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Mrs. Lalonde.

Mr. Dhaliwal, go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I think Madame Lalonde has already explained it very well.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Ms. Rempel Garner, go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Chair, I'd like to point out perhaps a bit of a fallacy that my colleague Mrs. Lalonde may have made inadvertently.

When the department undertakes to provide data to a parliamentary committee, there is a legal onus on the department to provide correct and factually verified information. It is misleading to say that the department would provide the committee with so-called wrong information, as the parliamentary secretary has characterized to this committee. I do realize that it may take some effort on behalf of the department to provide the committee with this information.

However, to my colleagues, particularly in the NDP and the Bloc, I'd like to note two points. We are embarking on studies where this data is relevant and pertinent, and having this information by the 5th, provided to us factually correct by the department, as this motion would compel us to do, is important for us to contextualize our information.

The second thing I would like to note is that the public service acts at the behest of Parliament, not—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Rempel Garner, but the bells have started ringing. A vote is being called.

If the members want to proceed, I need unanimous consent.

3:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I don't have unanimous consent. The meeting will have to be suspended and we will come back 10 minutes after the vote.

To all the witnesses who are here, I am very sorry. I know you took time out of your busy schedule to be here, and I'm really sorry for that. We will have to suspend the meeting for the vote.

The meeting is suspended.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome back to meeting number 41 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

We had an amendment on the floor, and I had two people on the speaking list when we suspended the meeting.

Before we go on, just for the sake of clarifying what we are proposing today for the witnesses.... First of all, on behalf of the committee members, I really want to thank you and apologize to you for the delay because of some motions being brought forward and because of the vote. I know that you are really busy and that you took time to come and provide us with your testimony.

Having talked to the witnesses.... Because some have travelled from far away and some are really busy and cannot come back, out of our six witnesses—and just to make sure we have a fulsome discussion on this important topic—some of the witnesses are willing to come back to the meeting.

Based on my discussion, today we will have one panel. We will have Ms. Janet McFetridge, mayor of Champlain, New York; and Appolonie Simbizi, secretary general, Alliance des Burundais du Canada. The third witness for today will be Rema Jamous Imseis, representative in Canada for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.

I really want to apologize to the other three. We will reschedule the session. The clerk of the committee will be in touch with the other three witnesses to reschedule the meeting.

My request to the members is that we quickly go through that amendment and that motion so that we can at least have the opportunity to hear from the three witnesses today because it will not be possible for them to come back. We have the mayor all the way from New York.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Surrey—Newton, BC

Let's take a vote on the amendment.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

We have an amendment on the floor.

I have Ms. Kwan next on the list.

Ms. Kwan, go ahead.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC

Okay, we're ready to vote.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

We have an amendment on the floor brought by Mrs. Lalonde.

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We will now get to our witnesses.

First of all, I thank you for your co-operation. We will be hearing from our three witnesses and then going into our round of questioning.

Thanks to the other three witnesses for adjusting to come back again.

First, we will hear from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, represented by Ms. Imseis and Mr. Tamjeedi.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks. You can begin, please.

4:45 p.m.

Rema Jamous Imseis Representative to Canada, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

Thank you for the opportunity to appear on this very important subject. As the UN agency serving refugees and asylum seekers in 134 countries and territories, providing technical advice to improve the situation of asylum seekers is an integral part of our advisory role worldwide.

I'd like to begin with some critical figures on the state of global forced displacement to put Canada's current situation in the broader context. In the first six months of this year, an unprecedented 103 million people have been forcibly displaced by persecution, conflict and violence. Two-thirds of this population are hosted by bordering nations that are low- to middle-income countries, often struggling with their own political, economic, and social challenges. While displacement figures continue to rise around the world, solutions have, unfortunately, not kept pace with the average length of displacement, which spans 17 to 20 years.

Regrettably, the absence of meaningful political action to address the root causes of displacement, along with increased conflict, insecurity and the effects of climate change, means that this trend is unlikely to be reversed soon. Included in these statistics are approximately 4.9 million asylum seekers. In this larger context of global displacement, it is important to note that Canada currently receives less than 1% of the world's refugees.

For those refugees who are able to find a solution in Canada, research demonstrates that they make several contributions to this rich and vibrant multicultural society. Census data provides strong empirical support for the claim that Canada's investment in refugees pays off. For instance, after 20 years in Canada, refugees contribute more to income tax than they receive in social supports. Other key metrics, including home ownership, job creation and educational achievements, all point to the conclusion that refugees make substantial contributions to Canada.

Ensuring safe and unimpeded access to asylum is a legal obligation that Canada, along with 148 other states, has committed to honouring. We understand that there are always challenges in receiving asylum seekers and ensuring that these critical rights are safeguarded.

Each time I visit Roxham Road—the most recent occasion being 10 days ago—I am struck by two observations. The first is the humane and dignified approach of authorities and the organized fashion in which Canada processes these claims. The second equally compelling observation that comes from my interactions with asylum seekers on each of these visits is that these are human beings, each with their own individual story to tell, often linked to experiences of trauma, devastation and loss. When they come forward seeking Canada's protection, irrespective of how they arrived, they are exercising their right to do so.

It is critical to note that, when irregular asylum claims are evaluated by Canada's robust system, 61% are accepted as refugees. In human terms, that is six in 10 lives saved from persecution, all unique stories of suffering, survival and resilience. Given Canada's strong and sophisticated system, I have no hesitation in saying that it is well equipped and resourced to continue ensuring safe access to asylum.

As communicated to our counterparts, continuing to strengthen triaging and processing efficiencies to enable flexibility in the face of this increase in claims is a key priority. In this regard, we continue to provide support and work with authorities on possible improvements to eligibility processing at the border, which has seen some delays due to the increasing claims.

While this ongoing effort to strengthen processes is under way, consideration may be given to allowing temporary work permits for asylum seekers who arrive at the border before they are referred to the Immigration and Refugee Board. Canada has had an excellent track record in ensuring that asylum seekers obtain work permits, but recent increases in arrivals have led to delays in eligibility processing and waits of up to 18 months. This is important not only for the economic self-reliance of those who are crossing, but also for their well-being, dignity and overall prospects for integration, not to mention being an important resource for Canada, which is still experiencing labour shortages across many sectors of the economy.

Canada continues to be a source of good practice and positive examples relied on by other countries around the world, and UNHCR remains committed to working with government bodies and civil society to ensure that asylum seekers continue to be received in a manner that upholds international legal obligations.

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Ms. Simbizi, secretary general, representing Alliance des Burundais du Canada.

Ms. Simbizi, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Please begin.

4:50 p.m.

Appolonie Simbizi Secretary General, Alliance des Burundais du Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Honourable members of parliament, the Alliance des Burundais du Canada is honoured to testify before this committee today on such an important and vital issue for people in difficult and even distressing situations at a point in their lives. Asylum claimants have started using Roxham Road in Quebec en masse in hopes of finding a home in Canada, and for some time now, their numbers have been steadily increasing at the point of entry.

Some people believe that the government is lax at the point of entry, while others believe that there is a disturbing humanitarian situation that Canada cannot turn its back on. Unfortunately, there has never been a conclusive debate about the causes of this massive influx of asylum seekers, nor about what response would be appropriate and in line with Canada's responsibilities to protect asylum seekers.

All candid observers, as well as migrant and asylum-claimant rights organizations, including the Alliance des Burundais du Canada, agree that this situation stems from the protection system for asylum seekers in the United States, which has been broken for a number of years. Delays are also causing huge problems, which contribute to putting asylum seekers in an untenable situation on a human level.

Most of the asylum seekers who have taken Roxham Road have lived in the United States and claimed asylum there, but have waited for a response without seeing a way out at the end of the tunnel. We must never lose sight of the fact that these asylum seekers are, for the most part, mothers, fathers and children who left their home countries alone, believing that they could be reunited with their family once they are welcomed in a new country. Unfortunately, after arriving in the United States, the uncertainty of the protection system puts them in limbo and they become another source of problems.

Unfortunately, there is testimony that these claimants who have been turned away at the Canadian border are sometimes put in detention in the United States, further complicating their situation.

If Canada were to close Roxham Road without a tangible alternative to address the problem of asylum seekers at an impasse, it would be using its geographic location to partially escape its responsibilities to protect asylum seekers.

As has been reported in the past, desperate asylum seekers sometimes take unfortunately perilous paths, risking their lives. Some even die.

It is the untenable situation in which these asylum seekers find themselves that has provoked the debate over the controversy surrounding the Safe Third Country Agreement.

We applaud the efforts of the federal government, which has established basic infrastructure just off Roxham Road to care for these asylum seekers and continues to help refugees in general better integrate. While additional efforts are still needed to accommodate these claimants, we encourage any action that moves toward practical solutions, rather than action that would worsen the living conditions of these already vulnerable claimants.

For example, more resources should be allocated to the RCMP, the Canada Border Services Agency and all relevant agencies to support more effective and safe work. Hearings could also be granted much more quickly to claimants, especially those who qualify, so that they can access the labour market.

On the other hand, there is evidence that claimants who have come through Roxham Road and have been well accommodated as refugees are integrating well into society and actively participating in the advancement of our country in the same way as other citizens.

When faced with facts, we—

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Simbizi. The time is up.

There are five minutes for all the opening statements. You will get another opportunity to speak further when we go into the rounds of questioning.

We will now proceed to Ms. Janet McFetridge, mayor of Champlain, New York.

Welcome, Ms. McFetridge. Thank you for travelling from that far away.

You will have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please begin.

4:55 p.m.

Janet McFetridge Mayor of Champlain, New York, Plattsburgh Cares

Thank you all for inviting me to speak.

Roxham Road is better know in Africa than it is in the United States.

I'm likely the last American these refugees meet on American soil as they continue this journey. I cannot walk in their shoes, but I can walk beside them. As these refugees lean into me whispering, “I am scared. I am running for my life. People are trying to kill me. I have no other options”, I listen attentively and I join in the last few steps of this journey.

Refugees arrive via taxis or private drivers and are sometimes on foot, in families, alone, in small groups or in van-loads of more than 15. Their looks of confusion, apprehension, fatigue or sadness—a vast array of emotions—are visible as they climb out of the taxis. Strangers help strangers with luggage. Children serve as interpreters for their parents. Mothers hand babies to teens or even to me, so they can get organized, and toddlers wander as toddlers do. It is a microcosm of humanity working together regardless of language, nationality or appearance, all under a cloud of fear as they see the RCMP waiting a few feet away.

For the majority of these refugees, their prior interactions with police officers have not been positive. I have seen people walk down the path with their hands in the air. Others have fallen to their knees with their hands raised in the snow. Some have said, “Arrest me; I have no other choice but to come here.” One woman from Turkey ran down the path, sobbing, right into the arms of the officer. He very quietly told her that this is Canada, that she doesn't need to cry and that she won't be harmed.

Allow me to share a couple of stories from Roxham Road with you.

Very recently, a car pulled in with Connecticut plates on it. The young man, all alone, asked me if this was where he could get into Canada. He said his plan was to leave the rental car, but he was very nervous. His hands were shaking and he had tears in his eyes. He wanted to know if the police would beat him or harm him in any way. I told him no.

As I spoke softly trying to calm him down, he explained that he was gay. He was disowned by his parents, fired from his job, and his choice right now was to leave or die. He would be stoned to death if he returned home, so he decided to try Roxham Road, but now he was terrified. I said to him, “Look at you. You did it. You're here with me. You're safe. You did it.” He smiled and said yes. After a few more minutes he walked away from the car and down the path.

On a frigid day last February, a large van arrived and out poured a dozen people. Among this group were two little girls, sisters, dressed in matching pink sweatsuits. Do you know how you dress your children up for a special occasion? These girls were ready for their new life in a new country in brand new clothes and they were shivering uncontrollably. It was about 5°F that morning. I had no children's coats with me, so I wrapped them in large, adult-sized jackets. They were so bulky the girls had trouble walking, but I put my arms around them and steered them toward the trail where they slowly walked into Canada.

Day after day, people from all around the world travel on Roxham Road seeking safety and a place to call home. Young men have hugged me, saying they left their mothers behind. There are old women all alone, a pregnant woman in labour, elderly men who can barely walk, strong mothers who will do anything to protect their kids, and then those precious children who have no choice in this journey.

One of those youngsters recently told me how much she liked the stuffed animal I had given her. She asked me how long she could keep it. I said that it was hers forever. As she skipped down the path into Canada, she turned around and said, “Thank you. See you later.”

Humans are naturally rooted to where we were born or have spent time. We need to feel that we belong. The writer Maya Angelou expressed it so well by saying, “The ache for home lives in all of us, the safe place where we can go as we are and not be questioned.” Many times the refugees have told me that they did not want to leave home, but it was due to violence, drug cartels, threats of starvation, the effects of climate change, persecution for their sexuality or their religion, and protection of their daughters from FGM.

Humans have a strong will not only to survive but to thrive, a dream that most of us share regardless of where we were born. The ties that bind us together as humans are stronger than our differences. May each of us do what we can to help all of humanity find home.

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

We will now proceed to our round of questioning, and we will begin our first round with Ms. Rempel Garner.

Ms. Rempel Garner, you will have six minutes. Please begin.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you. I'd like to direct my questions to the UNHCR.

Thank you for your attendance today and for your work.

Some civil society groups have characterized the United States of America as not safe for many refugees. Do you agree with this characterization?

5:05 p.m.

Representative to Canada, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

Rema Jamous Imseis

The ultimate determination on whether or not the U.S. is a safe country comes down to the two countries that are signatories to the bilateral agreement called the safe third country agreement. There is a responsibility on the countries that enter into that agreement to do periodic reviews and to determine that the safeguards required in order to make sure that the agreement upholds the basic legal standards that are applicable—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Does the UNHCR believe that the standards are in place with the United States?

5:05 p.m.

Representative to Canada, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

Rema Jamous Imseis

UNHCR is charged, as I said at the outset, with providing technical guidance and support to governments around the world, including the United States, on areas for strengthening asylum systems—

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I have five minutes left. I'm just looking at what UNHCR's position is on whether or not the United States meets standards set by you that would determine if the United States is safe for refugees.

5:05 p.m.

Representative to Canada, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

Rema Jamous Imseis

There is no perfect asylum system in the world. All asylum systems can be strengthened. UNHCR has communicated on the occasions when we feel that certain gaps exist in the UN system. We do that on a bilateral basis.

You can also check the public record where we have expressed concerns about certain practices.