Evidence of meeting #17 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was care.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Main  Minister of Health, Government of Nunavut
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Vanessa Davies
Julie Green  Minister of Health and Social Services, Government of the Northwest Territories
Tracy-Anne McPhee  Minister of Health and Social Services, Government of Yukon
Alika Lafontaine  President-Elect, Canadian Medical Association
James A. Makokis  Plains Cree Family Physician, Kinokamasihk Nehiyawak Nation, Treaty Number Six Territory, As an Individual
Evan Adams  Vice President, Indigenous Physicians Association of Canada

4:15 p.m.

Minister of Health and Social Services, Government of Yukon

Tracy-Anne McPhee

I do think it's what I spoke about with the concept of a coordinated approach. I think we need to be at a trilateral table. I think we need to really work at the details and the practicalities of how the program operates on the ground, as opposed to in the concept of policy only: What are the effects of that? I think we've heard some great examples today of what that could be, and also of a coordinated approach. That would have to be individual to the territories, because I don't think the three of us do things the same way across the top of the country.

I know that we would welcome partners to come and have those discussions and discuss how the NIHB program works and how it doesn't work, and how we can also make improvements in our systems.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Mr. Morrice.

We'll now go to Ms. Idlout.

You have six minutes.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

First, thank you, and welcome to this committee. Your presentations are very interesting.

I welcome John Main, a minister of the Nunavut government in health. It is good to see you.

I will raise this question to all three of you in the order of your presentations.

In your opinion, will paying indigenous wellness counsellors the same rate as the academically certified mental health professionals have a positive impact on indigenous peoples' health and well-being?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Minister Main, you could start off.

4:15 p.m.

Minister of Health, Government of Nunavut

John Main

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

Regarding this, yes, I agree. It would be very beneficial to have equal payment and to acknowledge both the traditional and the academic, but the non-insured health benefits do not have that. They have a policy or policies that they need to improve, including traditional healers or counsellors.

Yes, it would be very beneficial for Inuit if our own counsellors and professionals could be paid the same rate and recognized as such.

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Next is Minister Green.

4:20 p.m.

Minister of Health and Social Services, Government of the Northwest Territories

Julie Green

Thank you.

It's very important that people see themselves reflected in the health care staff. It builds confidence in the system.

We've recently started a program here whereby we have hired indigenous wellness counsellors who were trained at Rhodes college in B.C. We have made a community fund, and communities can choose to hire them directly to provide counselling services in their communities. We've had good uptake with that fund.

People are very proud that their community members have gone for this training and are returning to provide this service in their communities. We would want them to be paid on a par with non-indigenous counsellors so that the jobs are attractive to them.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Now we have Minister McPhee.

4:20 p.m.

Minister of Health and Social Services, Government of Yukon

Tracy-Anne McPhee

Thank you very much.

I think the impact of culturally sensitive and culturally informed treatment cannot be overstated. I think the opportunity to have consistent equality in wellness counsellors' pay is absolutely the case.

We know that health care is moving slowly—albeit moving—to the concept of patient-centred treatment and wraparound services, and we know that culture—and language—is such an important part of that. Clearly, we need to make sure that all varieties of treatment are available and counselling is available and that the quality of pay is critical.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

Do you think the medical escorts provide a valuable service? They should not be volunteering only. They should be paid as well. What do you think?

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU

Correct.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

We'll do it the same way, with Minister Main going first.

4:20 p.m.

Minister of Health, Government of Nunavut

John Main

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

If the escorts were to be paid a salary, it would be helpful, because they leave their jobs and go on leave, for a long length of time sometimes, without pay. They also have so many incidentals when they are escorting family or patients. They are incurring personal costs constantly. Yes, their food is paid for, and their accommodation is paid for, but there are the incidental costs that they incur themselves as well as for the person they are escorting. They become financially responsible for the patient.

Not having a lot of access to money, not having money, is very common for many of us. Yes, I do believe that the incidental costs they incur for any length of time as escorts and for looking after their patients should be considered. I agree.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Go ahead, Minister Green.

4:20 p.m.

Minister of Health and Social Services, Government of the Northwest Territories

Julie Green

I recognize that time is valuable and that people give it up to be medical escorts. My concern is about the cost. We mirror NIHB to our whole population. We have about 18,000 medical travel trips a year, not all of them with escorts. Maybe about a quarter of them are with escorts. That would be a considerable extra expense for the Government of the Northwest Territories, even if the NIHB covered all of the NIHB clients.

Our health system is in a deficit. That deficit has been growing every year, so I'm concerned about that. While I recognize the value of offering payment to someone who is giving up their personal time, maybe an honorarium would be a more affordable way to do it.

This is a challenging question. I understand that it comes with a good intention, but I'm concerned with the cost.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Minister McPhee, go ahead.

4:25 p.m.

Minister of Health and Social Services, Government of Yukon

Tracy-Anne McPhee

Certainly medical travel in the north is a way of life. We're doing more and more services locally all the time, but some, of course, just cannot be done.

It's an important question. I agree with Minister Green that ideally it would be something that could be done. An honorarium process could be more predictable as far as costs go, perhaps, with averaging or understanding medical travel amounts, but we do have to recognize the aging population and the opportunity for those costs to increase. Again, as I think Minister Main said, this is about people. It's not about costs only, but we have to be mindful of that. An assessment process or some version of that would also probably be beneficial.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

Unfortunately, we've run out of time. We have to follow this with another panel.

Minister Main, Minister McPhee and Minister Green, I want to thank you for giving your time today. Thank you for answering our questions and making presentations. You've provided valuable input to our study. We very much appreciate it. Thank you very much.

With that, we will suspend for a few minutes while we move to the next panel.

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

I call the meeting back to order.

We'll start this second panel.

Welcome to our witnesses. Today, we will have with us Dr. Alika Lafontaine, president-elect of the Canadian Medical Association; Dr. James Makokis, appearing as an individual, who is a Plains Cree family physician of the Kinokamasihk Nehiyawak Nation in Treaty No. 6 territory; and Dr. Evan Adams, vice-president of the Indigenous Physicians Association of Canada.

Welcome to all three of you.

The way we'll proceed is that you will each have five minutes to speak. After that, we will go into a round of questions. We have an hour for all of this.

Dr. Alika Lafontaine, please go ahead. You have five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Dr. Alika Lafontaine President-Elect, Canadian Medical Association

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm pleased to join the committee from Treaty 8 territory today, which is the traditional and present-day territory of the Woodland Cree, Dene and Métis nations.

I am Dr. Alika Lafontaine, a Métis anesthesiologist of mixed indigenous ancestry working in Grande Prairie, Alberta. It's my pleasure to appear before you as president-elect of the Canadian Medical Association and commend the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs for undertaking this study and inviting the Canadian Medical Association to be a witness.

Improving the administration and accessibility of the non-insured health benefits program is a key part of addressing the health inequities between indigenous and non-indigenous people in Canada. The Canadian Medical Association is committed to promoting equitable access to timely, quality care in all Canadian health systems, and strongly supports indigenous health transformation toward these goals.

The CMA recognizes that the most important voices in this evaluation are those who are directly impacted. These are the first nations and Inuit patients who access these services directly. We hope that communities, families and patients who utilize the NIHB program are fully engaged and heard throughout this study.

I hope to enhance this discussion by sharing two perspectives. The first is the lived experience of non-indigenous physicians who support patients eligible for NIHB programs. The second is my own personal experience as a specialist physician in a regional centre servicing Canada's north. Unlike my primary care colleagues, I do not interact with NIHB directly, but I support patients who depend on NIHB programs like medical travel to safely transport them to and from our regional hospital. It is important to acknowledge that without NIHB, many patients would be without any meaningful access to certain types of care, including surgical access and in-person specialist consultation.

Canadian physicians agree that NIHB needs modernization. Modernization should reduce fragmentation in the patient experience and provide efficient and clear decision-making pathways for physicians and NIHB administrators to make patient care decisions. Health care systems should be focused on getting patients to the right care at the right time, in a patient-centred way.

The CMA has long advocated for reducing health care fragmentation through modernization. Our recent call for federal leadership on pan-Canadian integrated health human resource planning is a case in point. Similarly, we support the increase and consistent integration of resources within the NIHB program to promote better coordinated care for patients, and more effective engagement of health providers supporting and advocating on behalf of patients navigating these programs.

Fragmentation can be considered in different categories. I will address two.

The first category is overly complicated workflows, where roles are poorly understood. There is a considerable amount of time and energy that physicians, patients, their families and NIHB administrators use in navigating paperwork and decision-making structures. Unlike provincial and territorial medicare, where physicians can provide direct approval and access to services, the added administrative layers of the NIHB create opacity on the physician's role and jurisdiction in these processes. The CMA's president, Dr. Katharine Smart, is a pediatrician in the Yukon. Dr. Smart's experience of teaching herself how to utilize and navigate NIHB on behalf of her patients and families is a shared experience of many physicians across Canada.

The second category is a lack of integrating modern technology toward patient-centred, patient-engaged efficiency. Navigating paperwork and people can take up hours of their physicians' time, filling out paperwork and looking to connect with people over the phone. These paper forms must then be faxed through an asynchronous communications system that dooms too many of these requests to disjointed dead ends. The physician is often the last to learn the loop was never closed, delaying care and often resulting in worsening patient outcomes. NIHB has yet to be tightly integrated with a mature, centralized patient experience and quality improvement departments, so these situations are likely not tracked or addressed in a broadly consistent way.

Secure, digital communication where patients engage with providers on their own journey from beginning to end now exists in many health systems across Canada. In place of a series of noncontiguous faxed forms, secure digital communication can close that loop, informing, tracking progress and answering questions regarding a medically necessary request that is processed through the NIHB. It also provides a digital audit trail that could improve patient experiences and iterative quality improvement.

Colonization, systemic racism and lack of investment in health care infrastructure add additional layers of complexity to the modernization of the NIHB—

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

I raise a point of order, Mr. Chair.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Stand by, Dr. Lafontaine, please.

Madam Gill.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Excuse me. The sound quality was poor, but the interpretation has just started again.

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Are you okay now?

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Chair, the interpreter reports that the witness does not have the appropriate headset. Perhaps that is why the sound quality is poor. If the witness could provide his speaking notes to the committee, it would help the interpreters to do their job.

I am passing the message on to you.