Evidence of meeting #25 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was arctic.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John McKearney  President and Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Vanessa Davies
Tina Saryeddine  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
P. Whitney Lackenbauer  Professor, Trent University, As an Individual
Anthony Moore  President of the Board of Directors, First Nations' Emergency Services Society

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to Meeting 25 of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We're gathered today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

Before we get started, committee members, is there a motion to adopt the list of additional witnesses provided to you in the context of our fourth study? The clerk did not receive any other names to add to the list in the past week, so we will be proceeding with the list provided by the analysts.

Could I have somebody with a motion to accept the witness list that was provided to you?

1 p.m.

Liberal

Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS

I'll make that motion, Mr. Chair.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

(Motion agreed to)

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

It looks like a unanimous vote. Thank you for that.

Today, we will continue our fourth study, which pertains to sovereignty, security and emergency preparedness of indigenous peoples in the Arctic.

On today's first panel, we will be hearing from Mr. John McKearney, fire chief and president of the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs, and he is accompanied by Tina Saryeddine, executive director of the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs.

We are expecting another witness who may or may not be on with us yet, but we're going to proceed right away anyway: Chief April Martel of the K'atl'odeeche First Nation. Hopefully, she will be online very shortly.

I wish to remind all participants of the Board of Internal Economy's requirements regarding physical distancing and the wearing of masks.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members or witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are offered in English, French and Inuktitut for the meeting today. Please be patient with the interpretation. There may be a delay, especially since the Inuktitut has to be translated into English first before it can be translated into French, and vice versa. The interpretation button is found at the bottom of your screen in English, French or Inuktitut. If interpretation is lost, please let me know and we'll fix it before we carry on. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can also be used at any time if you wish to speak or to alert the chair.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly to help the interpreters. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

May I remind you that all comments must be directed to the chair of the committee.

We shall now begin.

As usual, the witnesses will each have five minutes for their presentation. We will then move on to a question and answer period.

Without further ado, we'll call our first witness, Mr. John McKearney.

I don't know how you plan to speak or whether you're going to share your time with Ms. Saryeddine, but the two of you combined have five minutes for your opening comments. The floor is yours.

1:05 p.m.

John McKearney President and Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to all of the committee for your precious time. I will speak and then I will ask Ms. Saryeddine to answer questions, as well, if that works.

Thank you for inviting the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs here today. For the record, my name is John McKearney. I speak to you from the unceded territories of the Lil'wat Nation and Squamish Nation. I am the current fire chief for the resort municipality of Whistler, British Columbia. Prior to that I was the fire chief for the City of Vancouver and I have been in the fire service for 42 years. I am the current president of the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs, and I am joined here today by the CAFC's executive director, Tina Saryeddine.

Our remarks will focus on four key themes: Canada's Arctic and northern policy framework, the importance of implementing the first nations fire protection strategy across the country, general issues in the fire sector, and what an action orientation to problem solving in the north might look like.

Canada's Arctic and northern policy framework provides a reasonable starting point for addressing severe disparities and inequities in the north impacting primarily indigenous peoples. It provides a vision essential for our indigenous peoples, for a collective conscience of our country and for our international security—a triple bottom line, which increases the urgency of action.

However, while it is a start, the chapter on safety, security and defence and its fifth objective to increase “whole-of-society emergency management capabilities in Arctic and northern communities” are high level. Unless we missed it, there is nothing at all on fire or on how mitigation, response or preparedness for emergencies or fire situations would occur.

How might this be addressed? Next week we will have the pleasure of partaking in a discussion with Minister Hajdu and the indigenous fire chiefs on the first nations fire protection strategy. It outlines priorities and specific goals framed within six areas—one, partnership with the first nations leadership and fire protection; two, fire prevention education; three, community standards; four, fire service operation standards; five, climate change; and, finally, six, critical infrastructure. This is a thoughtful and well-conceived strategy that focuses on education for indigenous leaders. They are the ones who make the decisions and allocate resources in their communities. If they are aware and empowered, they will make the right decisions. The strategy also links fire safety and disaster risk reduction, which creates economies of scale. It calls for the implementation of FireSmart strategies, which are essential given the increasing climate issues.

Exceptional work has also been done on the creation of the indigenous fire marshal office, now known as the National Indigenous Fire Safety Council. It has important principles for fire education, prevention and funding for indigenous communities. They still await the signing of the contribution agreements.

Moving quickly is critical because, in the north, implementation is significantly more complex than it is anywhere else in this country. In preparing our notes for today, we had the pleasure of speaking with the fire chiefs in Inuvik and in Yukon, who described how the absence of fire technicians and the existence of so many fly-in-only remote communities make simple tasks like inspecting fire and life safety equipment lengthy and expensive.

A melting permafrost creates flood issues like those never experienced before. That's along with wildfires and grass fires. Situations in which you have four or five families living in what was built as a single-family home reduce the intended lifespan of a house through greater wear, condensation, humidity and normal wear and tear. Finally, builders need to be held to account for construction quality. Currently they are not because of funding, permit and reimbursement issues.

On the issues of critical infrastructure and climate change, you already know that the federal government is leading its “Let's Talk Critical Infrastructure” and “Let's Talk Adaptation” consultations. We recommend strong linkages between those learnings and this study. If 30% to 40% of Canada's collective critical infrastructure assets are in critical condition, we can only imagine that things are far worse in the north. There may be no infrastructure in some areas, so more than three levels of government must collaborate. For example, according to the chiefs up north, the cost of water-supply infrastructure can be as high as $10,000 per meter.

These are difficult challenges, but there is an opportunity. Canada is the second-coldest country in the world. We can be world leaders in how we live successfully, peacefully, strategically and safely in northern and Arctic regions with and through the leadership of indigenous communities.

We need to have gear such as self-contained breathing apparatus that can operate effectively in these severe cold climates, a water supply that is resilient, infrastructure that succeeds in Arctic blasts, transportation systems that thrive in the cold, and even tourism that stimulates local economies.

Finland seems to have taken this approach. The CAFC was asked recently by the Finnish fire chiefs association to partake in a study to tour the northern and Arctic countries' fire and emergency systems. This is costly, but Canada may be well served in investing in such a study program to aid in knowledge generation.

While some issues in the north are unique to the north, there are other issues in fire and emergency management that are quite common to all rural communities in our country. We would like to share these with you.

First, a high reliance on volunteers in the fire sector is a precarious form of emergency response. The supply is also dwindling nationally. You may need to create incentives for fire technicians and fire professionals to experience the north and possibly subsidize transportation. It's the only way we can get expertise up there.

Second, right across the country, and I imagine no less in the north, the all-hazards response training and equipment is falling behind the times. We've recommended to the federal government to bring back something along the lines of the former joint emergency preparedness program, applicable to all parts of the country, especially since new innovation and climate situations mean new training and equipment requirements in fire departments. Addressing this will require an economy of effort and investment. Please make sure that local communities are telling you what they need.

How can all these issues that are common in the fire and emergency service be addressed, not only in the north but all across our country? We have recommended to the federal government that a structure similar to the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the U.S. Fire Administration be implemented in Canada. Recognizing that collaboration with indigenous communities would be essential, we believe the secretariat being formed around the new Minister of Emergency Preparedness is a good start. We encourage maximum collaboration.

In closing, Mr. Chair and committee, I'd like to thank you for inviting the CAFC here today. Your task is enormous but full of promise for Canadians. We often say in the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs that we stand on the shoulders of giants. When our indigenous, northern and Arctic regions succeed, we all succeed.

Thank you, sir.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you very much, Mr. McKearney.

Madam Clerk, has Chief Martel, our second witness, joined us?

June 10th, 2022 / 1:10 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Vanessa Davies

No, sir, she hasn't. She might join the second panel. Apparently, she has her hands full with something.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Very well.

Given that we'll probably have only Mr. McKearney and Ms. Saryeddine with us, we'll proceed with the first round of questions.

Mr. Shields, you'll be the first to kick us off. You have six minutes.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.

Fire Chief, you went through an incredible list. I'm sitting here thinking that if we could implement one-tenth of what you said, we would be achieving something. It was an incredible list.

There was something, though, that was interesting. I know there's a lot of money in it, and you know it as well as I do. You talked about builders. You talked about accountability. I'm thinking that there is something, in the sense of a process, that we should be able to do; we do it elsewhere.

What are the roadblocks to doing that with building in the sense of accountability? Could you talk a bit about that?

1:10 p.m.

President and Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

John McKearney

Thank you, Mr. Shields.

At the risk of not being coherent on this, when we talk to our indigenous leaders, there is a construct that happens in these communities whereby the structure of paying for this is complicated and is such that there is not a lot of oversight. Couple that with the fact that there isn't a structure as we would have in normal communities, in all the areas where we live, where you have inspectors who are inspecting the phases of the construction. That is a gap there.

I will turn it over to Ms. Saryeddine, if there is anything that I've missed.

1:10 p.m.

Dr. Tina Saryeddine Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

Thank you, Chief McKearney.

Chief McKearney has explained it really well. In other communities where there are significant government resources for permits and bylaws and, as Chief McKearney said, inspections, these problems don't exist. There is the compounding element of the structural supports within the indigenous communities to be able to do those inspections and have those bylaws and resources in place that would be in other communities.

Also, as we understand it and as Chief McKearney has said—this is something that was explained to us from the National Indigenous Fire Safety Council, and I may be getting it slightly wrong—a key consideration is the way the funding is flowing, what steps are reimbursed and in what order, which is part of what is creating the accountability. We'd be happy to try to provide more information afterwards through a letter, but we'll do it in consultation with the National Indigenous Fire Safety Council.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

I appreciate that and appreciate any further information.

It sort of reminds me of the situation when we talk about water and potable water. We can build all the infrastructure we want in the sense of water, but unless we provide the necessary education and training, we are just recycling the process of building and rebuilding. Would this be similar in the sense that we need to work at the education? The fire chief mentioned education as one of a number on the list that he had, which was fantastic.

Education is a critical piece to this. If we can educate people, the capability is there. We just need to understand that we need to provide the resources for the education so the capabilities then can be used to empower. He used that as well.

Is there any response to that comment?

1:15 p.m.

President and Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

John McKearney

Thank you, Mr. Shields.

Yes, I think your comments are spot-on. We would refer back to the collaboration with the indigenous leaders. All these communities are very different. They have very complex issues, and one-size-fits-all is not there. I think you're spot-on with it, but the fine-tuning would be through the leadership of those communities.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

They would very much agree in the sense that we are not needing to write the rules, but we need to provide the resources in the sense of education.

You're very familiar with fire halls across this country, with 80% volunteers, and I see the significant training that goes on. I find different scenarios of training in different particular fire halls. When you're in rural, there is the cattle rescue unit. Now, you're not going to find a cattle rescue unit in a lot of places, but in a rural area like mine, there it is. That's what you're talking about. It needs to be built for the situation, thus the communication empowerment as they need it for their community.

Is there anything more you would like to say about how we can do that?

1:15 p.m.

President and Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

John McKearney

If I may, I'm going to turn it over to my very brilliant executive director, Tina, to answer that question.

1:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

Dr. Tina Saryeddine

Thank you, Chief McKearney.

I think you've said it well, Mr. Shields. The message that we've gotten in reading the strategy is that the decision-making has to be in the local communities through the leadership of the governing structures there and providing the correct information, almost as if those individuals would be the decision-makers for emergency management and for fire, which would require their education, the same education that one might have in a municipality. It's recognizing that those are the decision-makers and that they would need the information to apply it to their local situation.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you.

You mentioned Finland. I was going to ask about the Arctic Council, until you said that. Are there any other Arctic countries that you have been involved with, in communication with or know of besides Finland?

1:15 p.m.

President and Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

John McKearney

Tina, do you want to speak to this?

Go ahead.

1:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

Dr. Tina Saryeddine

Sure. Thank you.

Through the chair to Mr. Shields, the Finnish fire chiefs association has actually put together a study group. A number of their peer countries are together. While we haven't had direct communications with them, we were discussing with them how we would organize information sharing. It was really interesting when we had the chief from Inuvik and the chief from another one of the northern cities—it's escaping me right now—one of the comments they made to the Finnish representatives was that it takes a very long time to have the transportation just to get from say, Inuvik, to Ottawa, much less to do these study tours, which are huge. It also helped them to understand the size of our country geographically.

One of the challenges is actually time, but also resources. One of the things they had done was say that they would pay for organizing the study, but everybody would pay for their transportation and their time from the office, so to speak, which is a challenge. We haven't had a lot of discussions yet. We're trying to figure out what the best way to do that is and if it's the best use of resources and time at this point.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

That's an excellent point in the sense of the resources that are required.

I'm out of time. Thank you.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Mr. Shields.

We'll probably get back to it anyway.

Mr. Powlowski, you have six minutes.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Thank you.

Welcome, Chief. We're used to having chiefs here in front of this committee, but not your kind of chief.

Welcome, Ms. Saryeddine.

I worked for a few years in Norway House, which is a Cree community in northern Manitoba. I remember one particular fire there where three kids came in with either burns or smoke inhalation that required them to be on ventilators. I'm sure one of them has suffered his whole life because of facial burns.

As I recall, when I asked the community who got those kids out, they said it was community members. I'm sure they must have had some kind of fire department but they weren't the first responders there, so I know this is a really important issue.

Norway House is a bigger community. With 5,000 people, it's probably big enough to have permanent fire services, I'm guessing. A lot of the fly-in communities are small. They're 300 or 500 people and not only do they have inadequate fire services—Chief, you spoke a bit about it—but many of these communities are also subject to flooding at the same time.

How do we remedy this situation of small communities of, say, 300 people? They need to have people who can respond to health crises, to fires, to water, and there are only 400 people. You can't be an expert in everything.

Do you have any ideas as to the practicalities of how to be better at responding to emergencies?

1:20 p.m.

President and Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

John McKearney

It's an excellent question.

In my province here, we see that differential or that gap. We've had 59 fire deaths in this province in 2021. A significant number of those fire deaths, unfortunately, were in indigenous communities. I think it really has to go hand in glove with helping them out with equipment and training, but also with fire education.

The communities have to wrap their heads around, for instance, a working smoke alarm. That's the safest way to ensure their families are safe, especially when homes have, unfortunately, three or four families living in them. Try as we might, as the national representative body of the fire service, to get everybody to ensure they have working smoke alarms in their homes, it still is not being heard.

We go back to this: It has to be at the leadership level of those communities.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Does indigenous services provide those communities with smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors?

1:20 p.m.

President and Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs

John McKearney

I don't know that answer. I know we do it in some provinces. We do it in this province.

I don't believe it reaches the indigenous communities to the extent that it does in smaller communities in this province. It's a gap, sir.