Evidence of meeting #36 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was language.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marie Wilson  Former Commissioner, Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, As an Individual
Zebedee Nungak  As an Individual
Marjolaine Tshernish  General Manager, Institut Tshakapesh
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Vanessa Davies
Willie Sellars  Williams Lake First Nation
Melissa Mbarki  Policy Analyst and Outreach Coordinator, Indigenous Policy Program, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Josie Okalik Eegeesiak  As an Individual

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Good morning everyone and welcome to meeting No. 36 of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We are gathered here today on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

My name is Marc Garneau. I'd like to welcome our witnesses who have joined us this afternoon as we study Bill C-29. We have with us Dr. Marie Wilson, former commissioner of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, appearing in person. We have Zebedee Nungak, also appearing in person.

We also have with us, by videoconference, Marjolaine Tshernish, general manager of the Institut Tshakapesh.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members or witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services in English, French and Inuktitut are available for today's meeting. Please be patient with the interpretation; it takes a little while to get the translation done.

For those on video conference, the interpretation button is found at the bottom of your screen. It's a small globe, and you can listen in either floor, English, French or Inuktitut. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately, and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before we continue.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute. When speaking—and this is very important—please speak slowly and clearly; this is for the benefit of the interpreters.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Each witness will now be invited to make an opening statement of five minutes, which will then be followed by questions from the members of the committee.

We'll begin with Dr. Wilson. I'd like to invite you, Doctor, to begin with your opening statement.

4:05 p.m.

Dr. Marie Wilson Former Commissioner, Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Greetings to everyone. I'm really glad to be here on Algonquin territory. I'm here visiting from the Northwest Territories, from Treaty No. 8 territory. It's nice to be in a room with my member of Parliament and one of our fellow northerners, Member Idlout, as well.

As mentioned, I was one of the commissioners of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. What that means for today is that I was also one of the authors of the call to action that informs this particular legislative proposal.

As you know, we criss-crossed the country for six and a half years, listening to a very mixed legacy of painful achievements and devastating losses, including—as we all know by now—the loss of life itself in the thousands and still counting.

Our multivolume final reports and various summaries reflect all that we heard, and our 10 principles of reconciliation and our 94 calls to action charted a pathway forward for Canada, addressing action areas for all levels of government and all sectors of society. Among those was a call for a national council for reconciliation.

The significance of that, as we repeatedly heard from friends and colleagues both in Canada and internationally who had been involved in commissions and inquiries before, is that there's a need for an ongoing oversight mechanism; otherwise, things get forgotten and left on dusty shelves. There's a need for follow-up, not as a way to hold up continuing shame, but on the contrary to be able to track and monitor progress and hopefully improvement so that we can get all the full benefits of our work and the work of survivors for lasting impact to the benefit of all.

Today I want to make reference in passing to our call to action. Given time, I want to mostly point out areas where I hope you'll be open to hearing some suggestions for improvement of what is before you in your proposed legislation.

In 2015—on the fifth anniversary, at that point, of our report from the TRC—we expressed great frustration and concern about the slowness of the fulfillment of the calls to action. We specifically singled out the national council for reconciliation. The reason for that today is to say, “Finally, here we are.” I hope you'll hear what I'm saying as potential areas for improvement and not as anything I hope would ever be used as reasons for further delay.

I want to make observations in three specific areas.

The first is reconciliation as a shared purpose. I'll just say, for the analysts and others, that there is a longer form of this paper that I will provide for your purposes, but I'm just headlining here and hoping I'm not being too negative in the process.

The Bill C-29 summary says the purpose of the proposed legislation “is to advance efforts for reconciliation with Indigenous peoples.” I think the purpose statement itself can and should be much stronger, not just “to advance efforts for reconciliation” but to ensure reconciliation, and not just “with Indigenous Peoples”, but between and among indigenous and non-indigenous peoples. As we said throughout our reports and repeatedly ever since, reconciliation is about the establishment and maintenance of respectful relations between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples.

Bill C-29 recognizes the need for an establishment of “an independent, non-political, permanent...organization”. I would offer that that language, too, could be even more precise to ensure that the non-political meaning is both independence from government and also non-partisan in spirit. That would be to protect its longevity, no matter which political party prevails in government over the years ahead.

The draft also uses the term “Indigenous-led”. Our TRC call to action does not use that terminology. Again, we specifically insisted, over the course of the commission and repeatedly since, that reconciliation is not an indigenous issue; it's a Canadian one. The very fact that we have this deliberation before a committee that is narrowly cast as “indigenous and northern affairs” underscores how easily reconciliation gets recast as an indigenous problem.

That's why we commissioners were very deliberate and precise in our wording in describing the oversight body with “membership jointly appointed by the Government of Canada and national Aboriginal organizations”—using the terminology of the day—“and consisting of Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal members.

The Bill C-29 proposal as worded, including its model for appointment rather than a collaborative approach, creates a silo approach that potentially divides the council internally before it ever begins. I have comparative examples that I can offer if time allows in the discussion.

The second point I want to address is accountability to Parliament. This is all about public awareness and accountability for improvement.

The section about reporting to Parliament that we had in our call to action is entirely missing from the Bill C-29 draft. Parliament is where the laws were passed to enact residential schools. The House of Commons is where national political leaders stood in front of national indigenous leaders to apologize for the fallout of those schools and to promise to move forward in the spirit of reconciliation. Parliament is where all Canadians have an elected representative to hear regular progress reports on whether we are actually living up to these latest promises made on behalf of the people of Canada.

I want to stress that this public accountability also provides transparency for prioritizing what we need to do next to celebrate where things are getting better and to fuel our encouragement as a country to keep at it and to keep trying.

On the point of financial resources, I won't say a lot. I'll just say this: Regarding financial resources, the draft is simply too generic on that point, with a generalized reference to a further call to action 55. In my experience, an intention without certainty of resources focuses all early efforts simply on trying to find the means to function.

I want to conclude by reminding you of three of the TRC principles of reconciliation that are especially relevant to my points today and to your deliberations.

Number 6 is this:

All Canadians, as Treaty peoples, share responsibility for establishing and maintaining mutually respectful relationships.

Number 9 states:

Reconciliation requires political will, joint leadership, trust-building, accountability, and transparency, as well as a substantial investment of resources.

Number 10 is this:

Reconciliation requires sustained public education and dialogue, including youth engagement, about the history and legacy of residential schools, Treaties, and Indigenous rights, as well as the historical and contemporary contributions of Indigenous peoples to Canadian society.

I believe there's great urgency to these calls to action. Since we've already agreed, all parties across the House, that this is a priority, in recent elections recommitments were also made on the issue of reconciliation. I hope that with a few amendments to strengthen the purpose and potential of this legislative proposal, all parliamentarians will move quickly to get the national council for reconciliation enacted and fairly resourced as soon as possible. We've called it a vital tool for our country to reap the benefits of ongoing education, introspection, course correction, and celebration. It's an honest mirror, hopefully, that will help us all become the world leader we claim we wish to be in matters of good and respectful relations between indigenous and non-indigenous citizens.

Mahsi cho, qujannamiik, merci beaucoup, and meegwetch.

Thank you very much.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you, Dr. Wilson.

We'll go now to our second witness, Mr. Zebedee Nungak.

4:15 p.m.

Zebedee Nungak As an Individual

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

First of all, thank you.

I will be speaking my own language. The federal government tried to erase our language.

[English]

I didn't realize that there's a very constricted time limit in these presentations and I had prepared an eight-page summary of what I wanted to say to the committee members; however, with the time constraints, I will read only one of those pages to give the sense of where I'm coming from on the definition and issue of reconciliation, which I equate very strongly with decolonization.

The word “reconciliation” has been in national circulation since 2008, when Canada's government established the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to examine the matter of Indian residential schools. This commission produced a report containing 94 calls to action designed to facilitate “reconciliation” between Canada's colonial governments and the indigenous peoples.

However, the word “reconciliation” is a misnomer and totally off the mark of truth. Here is why: Reconciliation assumes that sometime long ago there existed a utopian state of “conciliation” between colonial governments and indigenous peoples. This implies relations among equals, with neither side being superior or inferior to the other. “Reconciliation” suggests that a mutually beneficial balance, which once ruled the relationships between colonial authorities and indigenous parties, can be rediscovered. As we all know, there has never been any such thing.

Ever since immigrants from across the ocean set foot on the territories that eventually became Canada, these immigrants have been superior to all indigenous peoples who had occupied these territories prior to their arrival. This superiority is arrogantly deliberate and is so hardened that it continues to be ruling over life right to the present day.

From first contact, indigenous peoples have been treated as inferior beings who don't own any lands or resources. The hallmarks of colonial history are a narrative without a single trace of anything resembling equal-to-equal respect by colonial powers toward the indigenous peoples whose territories they stole, conquered or simply took over.

Kings of England issued royal charters and proclamations that arbitrarily dictated the status of indigenous ancestral lands without the consent of the indigenous groups affected. In these, there is nothing positive to reconcile. The colonial format has absolutely nothing for indigenous inhabitants of the country they “founded” in 1867.

The single mention of original inhabitants in the BNA Act was a one-liner assigning responsibility for “Indians, and Lands reserved for Indians” to the new federal authority. Canada's so-called founders were not educated enough to know about and acknowledge the existence of the Métis or the Inuit.

There's nothing to reconcile to. No state of Utopia that we can simply return to has ever existed.

Let's go back to the word “reconciliation”. The meaning of this word is listed in the Concise Oxford English Dictionary as the “action of reconciling; an instance or occasion of friendly relations being restored.” Friendly relations must have first existed before their restoration can be pursued. To seek reconciliation of something that never was is impossible.

We can, however, pursue a real objective called “decolonization”. Governments in Canada have plenty to make up for: their bullheaded, coercive policies in attempting to erase indigenous languages, cultures and identities. Think of these two words: “cultural genocide”. Within these words are lost identities, lost languages, lost family ties and cohesion, lost sense of belonging, lost innocence and lost lives. Repairing all of this will take plenty of time and resources...to right these profound wrongs.

[Witness spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak.

[English]

I am ready to share my 21 pages of writings on this issue, which I have delivered on CBC North radio in English and Inuktitut over the years, in order to enlighten people like you, who are designing activities and actions toward the goal of positively processing this something called “reconciliation”.

Thank you.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Thank you very much, Mr. Nungak.

I regret that we have to work within time constraints, but we would certainly welcome the full text you brought with you. If possible, provide that to the clerk and it will get to the members. Thank you very much.

With that, we will go to our next witness.

Ms. Tshernish, the floor is yours for five minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Marjolaine Tshernish General Manager, Institut Tshakapesh

[Witness speaks in Innu.]

[English]

Thank you for this invitation to contribute to the process that confirms the great importance of dialogue prior to implementing major projects for the benefit of the greatest number, including members of the First Nations of Quebec.

I am an Innu from the community of Mani-Utenam on the north shore of the province of Quebec. I am the general manager of the Institut Tshakapesh, an organization that has been in existence for almost 45 years.

Giving an Indigenous nation the right to speak is an appropriate and respectful way of recognizing it as a nation. In the case of Bill C‑29, this means recognition of its mother tongue and the language spoken in its region, its contextual environment, its geographic context, and its specific needs.

Often, the Innu nation of Quebec, which has French as its second language spoken, does not recognize itself in the way relations between the federal government and anglophone Indigenous people. It sometimes feels excluded from the major discussions. As a result, we feel powerless to act within those discussions. Today, I want to thank you for inviting us.

This linguistic specificity must now be taken into consideration. It may have very significant consequences for our communities, in particular socioeconomic consequences.

Since we live in eastern Canada and our spoken language, other than our mother tongue, is French, it is important that we be taken into account in allocating certain seats reserved for Indigenous people in Canada. It is important to allow members of First Nations who use French to have a place in major political discussions. As well, the documentation has to exist in that language so that these nations are able to speak freely in the official language in which they are fluent.

I also wanted to remind you that when Bill C‑91 concerning Indigenous languages was announced, the Assembly of First Nations, the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami and the Métis National Council participated in drafting it.

I note that there was no joint drafting in the case of Bill C‑29. An interim committee was appointed by the ministers. I do not doubt the quality of the work done, but I must point out that we received no information in the regions. When Bill C‑91 was drafted, we received information in the regions. We were informed even before the bill was announced and throughout the process until it was passed.

In this case, however, were it not for the member for Manicouagan, Marilène Gill, I would not have been made aware of the existence of Bill C‑29.

Obviously, we are pleased with the initiative that establishes a national council for reconciliation, which responds to calls to action 53 to 55 issued by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada.

I particularly want to make recommendations relating to the composition of the board of directors, specifically for adding another organization. There are the transitional committee and the office of the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, but it would be wise to add the Assembly of First Nations or another organization so that more people would be able to choose the directors.

The francophone region of Quebec should also be represented on the board of directors so that we are able to receive information in our region.

It is also important that one third of the Indigenous directors be candidates who acknowledge the existence of systemic racism. This is very important going forward, for the work of the National Council for Reconciliation.

We must make sure there is equitable representation of men and women on the board of directors and that it includes elders and former residential school students or children of residential school survivors. It is important that this sensitivity be reflected in the work of the National Council for Reconciliation.

We must also make sure that the directors do not have a conflict of interest or the appearance of a conflict of interest with the National Council for Reconciliation.

When the National Council for Reconciliation is created, it will be important to make sure that it has all the resources at the start that it needs in order to fully do its work, to perform its mandate. Even today, we are not hearing anything about the members of the transitional committee created last year. That is probably because they do not have the resources they need to perform their mandate. They are invisible. So it is important for the National Council for Reconciliation to be operational quickly, for it to be visible and accessible, and for it to be possible to see the work it is doing.

I would like to make one comment on accountability. I have seen that all levels of government, that is, the federal government, the provinces and the First Nations, had to provide data, at its request, to the National Council of Reconciliation so it could submit reports on the progress being made towards reconciliation. It is therefore essential that the Council have access to that data, which it be from the provincial or federal government or from the First Nations band councils. The data in question in the bill is under federal or provincial jurisdiction, or under the jurisdiction of a First Nations nation or band council.

I don't know whether I have any time left.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

In fact, you have used all the time allotted to you, so I am going to ask you to wrap up quickly.

4:30 p.m.

General Manager, Institut Tshakapesh

Marjolaine Tshernish

I am going to move on to my last point. When the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada was created in 2008, we were told its purpose was reconciliation among the former students, their families, their communities and all Canadians. If that is still the case, it has to be made clear in the bill and in the mandate of the National Council for Reconciliation.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Very good. Thank you, Ms. Tshernish.

You may be able to address that subject during the question period.

Colleagues, we have a witness who was going to appear in the second hour but needs to appear now, so I'm going to open the mike to somebody from that second hour. Chief Jean-Charles Piétacho of the Innu Nation will speak at this point in time.

Chief Piétacho, the floor is yours for five minutes.

October 27th, 2022 / 4:30 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Vanessa Davies

Chief Piétacho, your microphone is on mute.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

The floor is yours.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Jean-Charles Piétacho Innu Nation

We have been put on mute for a long time.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

I understand that. It happens to us all.

4:30 p.m.

Innu Nation

Chief Jean-Charles Piétacho

We were on mute before you arrived, more than 500 years ago.

[Witness spoke in Innu, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. I am happy to acknowledge that we are on land that has never been ceded. The land you are on is Anishinabe land and has never been ceded.

[English]

I would simply like to make sure that you have interpretation.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Madame Clerk, do we have interpretation for the chief?

4:30 p.m.

The Clerk

Yes, the interpreter is here. He is standing by. I believe he is interpreting because I can see people nodding around the room.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Very good.

Chief Piétacho, the floor is yours.

4:30 p.m.

Innu Nation

Chief Jean-Charles Piétacho

[Witness spoke in Innu, interpreted as follows:]

My name is Chief Jean-Charles Piétacho. I come from the community of Ekuanitshit, and I am here at the committee on behalf of that community.

I am proud to be here and to submit our brief on Bill C‑29. Truth and reconciliation are going to come about. I want to talk about this. Everything that has been said before...

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Go ahead, sir.

Please wait, Chief Piétacho.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

I'm not finding the translation.

4:30 p.m.

The Clerk

Perhaps I could remind the member, sir, that it takes a while. The interpreter works from Innu to French and then it has to be relayed from French to English.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Is that understood, Mr. McLeod?

It's a double one here. It's interpreted in French and then it has to be translated to English. It does cause a delay.

Please continue, Chief Piétacho.

4:35 p.m.

Innu Nation

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Marc Garneau

Please continue speaking and make your presentation.