Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Dec. 1st, 2022

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

A few months ago, as Chief of the Atikamekw community of Manawan, which is located north of my riding, Mr. Paul‑Émile Ottawa came to relate what happened when a fire broke out in his community in 2011. He reminded us that he and his council had to immediately purchase the equipment to fight the fire. There was no government fire prevention plan in place. It was the community that advanced the money to buy the water pumps to draw water from the lake. Then the community had to fight with the department for several months to get a refund. This is an example of the problems that are being raised now. If money had been invested in prevention, this would not have happened.

I would just like to remind you that at the end of the summer, Chief Paul‑Émile Ottawa presented his candidacy as a councillor and today, Mr. Sipi Flamand is the new chief of the Atikamekw community of Manawan, which I invite you to visit. It is a very beautiful community.

This example eloquently illustrates what the Auditor General's report shows. It says that the department, in 20 years, has never assessed the risk factors in the communities. It also says that the department accepted 112 emergency management projects submitted by communities, but did not fund them to implement them. You alluded to this. It also says that the budget for emergency response is three and a half times greater than the budget for prevention. So we have an approach that says it is better to cure than to prevent. This has to change. I'm going to ask a question in relation to that.

In the last budget, significant sums were granted to better fund Indigenous Services Canada. Will this money be sufficient to fund the 112 projects already accepted, as well as new projects to come, to better protect communities from the risks associated with emergencies? If so, how many years do you estimate it will take to catch up, that is to say, when will all 112 accepted projects be funded and completed, and when will the department be able to respond appropriately without falling behind?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

This is a very complex question. Thank you.

First of all, I should really note here that the provinces are important partners in emergency management and in emergency preparedness. Indeed, we encourage the provinces to work closely with first nations, as well as the federal government. We have a five-year service agreement, for example, that was signed with the Government of Quebec to provide support to first nations communities when their capacity to respond is exceeded. The Government of Quebec then invoices Indigenous Services Canada for expenses incurred by Quebec departments and agencies when a request for assistance to first nations is referred to them by Indigenous Services Canada.

This is a really important piece to realize, and it reminds me a bit of my time as Minister of Health and COVID, in that the federal government is an enabling partner. Indeed, we rely on the provinces and territories, who have expertise in emergency management, to help respond to these emergencies. By the way, the first nations in Quebec are indeed Quebec residents, and are entitled to that kind of support and care.

I will turn to the department official to speak a bit more about that particular situation, and perhaps she can answer how she thinks the ongoing maintenance of the funding requests will be managed.

[Kenza El Bied, Director General, Sector Operations Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you for the question, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

In fact, your question involves several sub-questions.

First of all, I want to assure you that we will meet with the chief. So, if there are any issues that have not yet been resolved, we will make sure that he receives the necessary services from us.

With respect to requests submitted as a result of emergencies, the community provides the services first, because our program...

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Excuse me, may I interrupt to remind you that the specific question I would like to have answered is about the 112 projects. How long will it take for them to be funded and implemented, given the last budget?

[Kenza El Bied]

All right.

At the time the report was being written, there were 112 projects, but now there are only 94. So there is progress.

It must be said that our current program has limited funds. We are working to get more funds to meet all these needs.

So the work is ongoing. I don't know exactly when these project applications will be processed, but we are working with the communities every day to process them and find a way to fund these projects as soon as possible.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Is my time up already? Time flies when you're in good company.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

You will have other opportunities to speak, Mr. Ste‑Marie.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq.

Welcome, Minister Hajdu and the team you have brought with you.

My colleague Blake Desjarlais, the MP for Edmonton Griesbach, had hoped to ask you these questions. He meant to be here. Unfortunately, he couldn't make it, so I'll be asking this question that he asked me to ask you.

Joanne Wilkinson, an official within your department, appeared at a meeting of the public accounts committee about this audit that we're talking about today. There was a discussion about the same $12 million for the first nation infrastructure fund, which is available to fund the 94 unfunded structural mitigation projects. It was mentioned that the estimated cost of these 94 project proposals would be $358 million.

During that committee meeting last Friday, my colleague Blake questioned the deputy minister about this very pressing issue. He asked her whether the amount of funding was sufficient, and she said that more money than that $12 million is needed. She clearly stated that her department had requested $300 million from you, Minister Hajdu, and that she had received a favourable response.

My question to you, Minister Hajdu, is this. Will the $358 million that the department requested be added to the first nation infrastructure fund in the next federal budget?

Qujannamiik.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Whenever we talk about millions or hundreds of millions, I get a little anxious, because it's not my decision, as you know. This will be a decision of the finance minister and the Prime Minister for budget 2023.

Certainly, the department every year gives me a very ambitious request to ask for on behalf of the first nations we service across the country for many different aspects of first nations life. I think it's fair to say that I am an ambitious minister as well.

I look forward, as we deliberate about this and many other issues that are critically underfunded—including infrastructure, including health service delivery and including many other aspects—to having the support of the members around this table to urge and advocate for first nations people, but also to vote positively when we get a decent budget.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik.

My follow-up question to that is this. When the Auditor General was here, I asked about when these projects became eligible. Her response was that it is since about 2013.

It's been well known for a long time that these needs existed for first nations communities. Knowing that these needs have been known for all these years, have you made submissions to the cabinet and to those places requesting larger funds in addition to the $12 million?

I understand what your department has requested. I understand what it has ended up with, but have you, in the past, requested that more be added to this fund?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I believe that budget letters are considered confidential, so I can't speak about the contents, but I can tell you that I am a very aggressive minister and I look for sufficient funding for first nations people to do the work that we know needs to be done.

I will also say this. The department is very thoughtful in its budget submission. The officials also know the gap. They also know the capacity of the department to be able to work with first nations to get the money out the door. It's also important that we spend the money we get in budgets.

These are the considerations that go through my mind every year as I prepare my budget letter for the finance minister.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Knowing that this $12 million has not been enough since 2013, when you get their responses to your submissions, what are the reasons that are given when the request is not being provided for?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

When the budget document is revealed to all of us as members of Parliament, those decisions, as you know, are made by the finance minister and the Prime Minister. It isn't so much that we receive a reason that certain amounts are funded. Sometimes we may know that, given expenditure history and that kind of thing. The difficult decision-making of government is to decide how it will spend money on the competing priorities across government. What happens right after is that the department goes through the budget with a fine-tooth comb, determines what it has for various different pieces of work, and then begins to plan the work for the year ahead, based on what the allocation is to the department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Ms. Idlout.

We'll now start a second round, beginning with Mr. Melillo, for five minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister and team, for being here to talk about emergency responses for first nations. Obviously, Minister, as you know, it's something that's very important for me and my riding.

One emergency that exists right now in first nations.... I've heard from many first nations in my riding about the shortage of children's medicines. Of course, that's something we're seeing right across the country. The concerns we're hearing are that Health Canada has secured additional doses of children's medicines to distribute to hospitals across the country, but there's no indication if any of these will end up in nursing stations in first nations.

Minister, can you confirm whether or not first nations will receive any of these medicines?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The First Nations and Inuit Health Branch works very closely with the Public Health Agency of Canada and Health Canada to make sure we don't have any critical shortages of medications that are used in community nursing stations. I will turn to my official in a minute to confirm, but my understanding right now is that we do not have a shortage, and that first nations community health stations have children's medications. We are monitoring that very closely.

If you know of a particular community that is experiencing that shortage, and I would say this to all members of Parliament, please don't hesitate to give me a call or send me a note, and we will look into that situation urgently.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

I appreciate that.

I'll just flag, Minister, that I have followed up with your office a number of times about this and haven't had much of a response, so I'll make sure I do that again. I appreciate that response.

To your knowledge, again to the original question, none of the medicines that have been secured by Health Canada in that first batch are destined for first nations. Is that correct?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll turn to my official to speak about the details.

[Gina Wilson, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

What I've seen is a very detailed tracking system of all medications, or reporting of any shortages. There are none. I can confirm that, as requested by the minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

You have my cellphone number, so if someone doesn't call you back, let me know.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

All right. I'll definitely do that. We have heard of shortages in my riding. Clearly, there's a gap in what's happening on the ground versus the information that's there. I'll definitely make sure to follow up.

With the limited time I have, I will turn back more directly to the report we have before us today. Minister, you've talked a lot about the need for more money. I recognize that funding in dollars is definitely an important aspect of this, but I'd caution as well. A PBO report that was released in May showed that the increase in funding in indigenous services has not necessarily led to equivalent results for indigenous peoples and communities on the ground.

That's somewhat reflected in the Auditor General's report as well. It shows that around 22% of the budget for emergency management is going toward preparedness rather than recovery. There's definitely more of an emphasis on responding to emergencies than there is on mitigating and preventing them. Are there plans in your department now to change those percentages and change those funding models to ensure we are putting more resources toward mitigating and preventing, rather than merely responding to these emergencies?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's a good question. First of all, we'll never stop responding. Those financial and other demands will not do anything but grow as we see climate continue to threaten first nations communities.

If there's any expectation that there will be a reduction in emergency response costs, we will see that sometime in the future. Indeed, even with mitigation, adaptation and better infrastructure, when a calamity occurs there is a need to respond. Indigenous Services Canada will always be there and will work in partnership with provinces and territories to make sure people are safe. That's our top-line job.

Having said that, this is the challenge. The pivot is, how do you do two things at once? It's not unlike other kinds of prevention conversations. We know, for example, that we should spend more on health prevention to reduce the load in hospitals, yet we have a hard time switching, as a society, from focusing on responding to the prevention.

I think we have to do both. I think we're going to have to continue to sustain our funding for emergency response while also ensuring that we become more reflective of the need to make investments that reflect the incredible pressure that infrastructure and people are facing as a result of climate change.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Mr. Melillo.

I now give the floor to Mr. Weiler for five minutes.