Evidence of meeting #5 for Industry and Technology in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you very much for those examples.
Of course, we think of mining, and it can take a very long time certainly in this country, but you did allude to a few things we could do relatively quickly. I think you mentioned we could reopen mines that have been shut down.
Could you provide more detail on what we could do in the next, say, two years to move in the right direction?
Director, Energy, Natural Resources and Environment, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
Yes. For some of it, like germanium and gallium, it's refining the by-product we already have and developing the capacity to do so. For some things like tungsten, antimony and cobalt, we could do more. We're already a minor producer, and we could expand the production we already have. I think the last DPA award was for a tungsten mine in New Brunswick, the Sisson mine. We know where all these things are. In some cases they shut down production in the 1980s or 1990s because of competition from China, and they just became uncompetitive with global commodity prices. There are some things where the resource is so good, the deposit is so good, and we just need to go back in and start producing and have a price of the commodity where it makes sense for someone to do that. Someone has to buy it at the end of the day.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Thank you very much, Madam Dancho.
Mr. Bardeesy, the floor is yours for six minutes.
Liberal
Karim Bardeesy Liberal Taiaiako'n—Parkdale—High Park, ON
Thank you.
I have two questions to start. One is on dual-use technologies and is for Madeleine Redfern and Ashwin Iyer. The second question is on the objectives of defence industrial policy and is for Heather Exner-Pirot, but the others can definitely jump in.
I wanted to share my appreciation, Ms. Redfern, for your description of the Arctic runway as a dual-use technology.
In the earlier panel, we talked about how we have to sometimes buy off-the-shelf technologies for things for which we don't have the capacity yet. We've also had a discussion in this committee about how the technologies we might need 10 or 15 years from now are the ones that are going to be very important and aren't necessarily ones we could even imagine or might be developing yet.
Ms. Redfern and Mr. Iyer, since you're both involved on the front lines of this technological work, what's your advice to us about how to set policy that will allow us to take some bets on some of those more innovative technologies that might not be currently in the mindset of those who are doing the procurement?
Chief Operating Officer, Northern Director, CanArctic Inuit Networks Inc., As an Individual
We are very fortunate to have quite a robust innovative sector on the west coast and the east coast with respect to marine technology. However, from my interactions with them, a lot of their technology hasn't been developed or tested for Arctic conditions and, as such, they would need some support and funding to be able to do that because it's very expensive to go to the Arctic. Ideally, you want to have those companies work with our local northern indigenous communities to build that capacity. We see companies or NGOs like SIKU, which means ice. Those partnerships are very successful.
With respect to dual purpose, I'll give you another example. We're seeing unmanned aviation or drones or unmanned underwater marine technology or similar technology being used for wildlife monitoring, but they also can and should be used for monitoring ships or other submarines or unmanned vehicles in the marine environment that may actually be foreign incursions we need to know about and how to respond to.
Professor, Director, Centre for Applied Research in Defence and Dual-use Technologies, University of Alberta, As an Individual
I could add to that as well.
Our experience as a university is really that our job is to look more forward. We're looking at technologies and their evolution over time frames of five to 10 to 15 years. We're always looking for the dual-use counterparts in the defence technologies, because this is where we tend to build basic science, and we tend to train our graduate students, build our labs and do our research. We're always aware and conscious of the dual-use counterparts to defence technologies.
A great example from Alberta is we have a very robust drone development ecosystem in Alberta, including in Medicine Hat, where we have several small and medium-sized enterprises related to drone production. Many of them are involved in wildfire monitoring and geophysical surveys. The same technologies that go into making drones resilient to those environments are the technologies that are required for defence.
Liberal
Karim Bardeesy Liberal Taiaiako'n—Parkdale—High Park, ON
Thank you.
My next question is to Ms. Exner-Pirot, but the others can definitely jump in, too.
In 10 or 15 years, how will we measure the success or failure of the policy that comes out? Is it company formation? Is it more women involved in this sector? Is it the number of patents? What are some of the ideas that you think we should be focused on in terms of the outputs that we want to be coming out of this over a 10- to 15-year time period?
Director, Energy, Natural Resources and Environment, Macdonald-Laurier Institute
That's a great question. For critical minerals, I'll speak to that. It would be independence in the supply chain, having a very clear line of sight on what the components are that go into all these assets and equipment, and knowing that they are all coming from the alliance or from allied countries and not relying on, for example, China or Russia. It's knowing what's in your supply chains. Usually you might have line of sight on the first or second layer, but you don't know what your contractor or subcontractors are providing. Right now China's actually selling some of these materials and components, requiring that companies indicate how they're going to use them, which gives China an excellent line of sight into the western defence manufacturing ecosystem.
Broadly and strategically, why we want to do this is to deter. If we have tremendous defence industrial capacity, if we can outlast and outmatch China and Russia, it will deter them from wanting to go into these interventionist campaigns, because they won't think that they can win. That's what we've been able to successfully do for the last 50 or 60 years with NATO spending, with that superior capacity, especially with the Americans, deterring them from even trying. I think, because we aren't as good on that and because they've caught up, they feel emboldened to be more conflictual.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Unfortunately, that's all the time allotted, Mr. Bardeesy.
Mr. Ste‑Marie, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Greetings to all the witnesses.
My questions will be for Ms. Redfern first.
Thank you very much for coming here to participate in the committee.
I would first like to ask you how the relationship between the Department of National Defence and your nation is going in your territory.
Chief Operating Officer, Northern Director, CanArctic Inuit Networks Inc., As an Individual
What I can say is that the military or the defence department has actually done better than some of the other departments in building relationships with our northern communities, in particular because of the northern exercises that they do and by working closely with our Arctic rangers. They have learned lessons from the mistakes they've made in the past. Of course, I always suggest that things can be improved upon, and there's a commitment to do so possibly by expanding the rangers' roles, not just a single activity, and also by supporting the junior rangers, because without a junior rangers program the Arctic rangers program is not sustainable.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC
Thank you very much for the examples you just gave us.
There's a lot of talk about the Arctic Ocean sea route. What roles can your nation play in supporting the defence department and the armed forces?
Chief Operating Officer, Northern Director, CanArctic Inuit Networks Inc., As an Individual
Our people are definitely interested in learning more skills and having the capacity to participate in some of the technological developments. My Inuit organization, Qikiqtani Inuit Association, has quite an extensive program on AIS, the automated information systems, effectively training our people so that they can see what ships are coming into the region, but at the same time giving them opportunity to go out on the land more, whether that is for marine monitoring or land animal monitoring. It's building all those different skill sets.
The challenge that I've heard is that so much of it is fragmented. A more holistic approach, with an understanding that their skill set is important for defence but also important for research, the environment and food procurement would be much more beneficial.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC
You talked about it in your presentation, but how could there be more economic activities by the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence in your territory that would benefit your nation?
Can you tell us more about that and about what you just talked about?
Chief Operating Officer, Northern Director, CanArctic Inuit Networks Inc., As an Individual
In part, because of the Government of Canada committing billions of dollars for improving national security, along with the 5% set-aside for indigenous procurement, we have seen the creation of a lot more indigenous companies in this sector. I do caution and warn that we are also further aware that there have been a lot of fake indigenous companies. Indigenous Services Canada, ISC, has removed over 1,000 fake indigenous companies.
To ensure that our companies are truly indigenous or have adequate indigenous participation, it needs to be more than simply the 51% ownership. There needs to be also, as in Nunavut, a disclosure of how many Inuit are going to participate in the actual project, in what role, as well as how much Inuit training or capacity development is done. There needs to be reporting and the possibility of audits to prove that Inuit or indigenous people are not just tokens or front-facing parts of the company.
Ultimately, the purpose of that 5% indigenous set-aside is to ensure our true participation and that the wealth that comes from our involvement is going back to our families and our communities, and is not simply a boomerang effect where we levy a tax and all the benefits go to the south.
Bloc
Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette—Manawan, QC
Thank you so much for all of those answers. I have one last question for you.
In terms of surveillance and security, have you compared the collaboration between your nation or your community and the Department of National Defence or the Canadian Armed Forces to what is being done in Greenland, for example, which is also a member of NATO?
Chief Operating Officer, Northern Director, CanArctic Inuit Networks Inc., As an Individual
Very briefly, the four Inuit regional corporations are part of a company called Nasittuq, in partnership with ATCO. These actually sort of fulfill that. There is a $5-million annual allocation to build up Inuit capacity. I think we can and we should do more.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ben Carr
Thank you very much.
Madam Dancho, we'll go back to you for five minutes.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Redfern, I appreciate your remarks very much. I'd like to talk more about what's needed for Arctic security.
Of course, when we talk about Arctic security, as you all know, we're not just talking about the security of our Arctic. We're talking about the national security of all 40 million Canadians. We're also talking about North American defence as well.
When Canadians look at a map, they know the Arctic is ours and they want it to stay that way, but we know that increasingly there's interest from Russia and China, which are coming into our territorial waters, seeing how we react and what our capabilities are and the like. Certainly, the case has been made that we need to do more in the Arctic to ensure that our sovereignty is protected.
Where would you start there?
What is critical to you to see in the defence industrial policy in terms of those Arctic investments? What do you need to see to have confidence that it's the right direction for what we need for continental defence?
Chief Operating Officer, Northern Director, CanArctic Inuit Networks Inc., As an Individual
One of the initiatives that Arctic360 has been pushing is the production of an inventory of all existing assets and the age and condition of those assets. It's effectively looking at where those critical investments need to be made in telecommunications, transportation or energy. We know that the information exists out there, but it's not been brought together in a concise, single location.
As well, there is the possibility of creating a system like a SimCity—for those of us who are older, like I am—where you can actually play with that and see, if you build a fibre optic cable, what that unlocks. Well, it turns out you can't build a fibre optic cable without sustainable and sufficient energy. It shows where those opportunities exist, but it also shows where those failures are.
I do believe that the military, to some extent, is doing some of that assessment for its own needs. The problem is that we're not doing it all together. We need the northern communities, industry and universities to be part of it, so we actually figure out what to do, where to do it and how much it's going to cost.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you very much.
Canada operates in continental defence through our NORAD agreement. Part of what we do, as you know, is surveillance. In a previous conversation with you, I was a bit shocked to learn that those over-the-horizon radar systems take 15,000 litres of diesel per day. I don't believe that Canadians are quite aware of the reliance on diesel by our northern communities. The pipeline and the grid infrastructure are just not the same in the Arctic.
You talked about energy a lot, and I know that you have been a proponent for MMRs and SMRs, or small modular nuclear reactors. Can you tell the committee why that is?
Chief Operating Officer, Northern Director, CanArctic Inuit Networks Inc., As an Individual
When I took a look at the various energy solutions, we learned, through quite a number of different independent studies, that for a full energy solution, for the most part, wind and/or solar won't get us there. For much of the Arctic geological situation, thermal power is not an option. Where there are rivers or large lakes, hydro may be an option. The challenge is that while the Arctic is melting, at the same time, we're actually seeing less precipitation. It's a weird situation where two truths can actually exist at the same time. The cities of Whitehorse and Yellowknife have actually had hydro dams that now require a diesel backup.
That leaves us very few options. Micro modular reactors, MMRs, which are in development—it's old technology that is now being repurposed with a possibility of a civilian or commercial use—would provide clean energy options.
We're seeing the industry out there producing everything from one-megawatt to 50-megawatt solutions. It's not the Darlington, which is 500 megawatts. They're being produced like batteries, so if you need 10, you might get two fives. I think we're going to see only three to five companies moving forward with real solutions.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
If we want to extend our operations militarily in the north, then we need better energy. You've made the argument that maybe we should be looking at nuclear.