Evidence of meeting #24 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mda.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Garneau  Former President, Canadian Space Agency, As an Individual
Steven Staples  Chair, Rideau Institute on International Affairs
Michael Byers  Professor, Canada Research Chair (Tier One) in Global Politics and International Law, University of British Columbia
Hugh Thompson  Spacecraft systems engineer, MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates Ltd., As an Individual

4:35 p.m.

Former President, Canadian Space Agency, As an Individual

Marc Garneau

You're right, it was an arrangement between the Government of Canada and a company, MDA, back in the late 1990s. I have never seen the documentation from that time, and I was not there at the time, but I don't think it had any provisions about what would happen if MDA decided to sell to another party. So perhaps that part of it just wasn't brought into this.

However, what did change was Bill C-25. That was not something that was envisaged back in the late 1990s, but it was something brought about six or seven years later on. I'm not an expert on Bill C-25, but you've heard some of the comments made by Professor Byers, and I think it is something that has changed the equation in regard to respecting the engagements of a company that gets sold to another company, in this case an American company.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bruce Stanton Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Mr. Garneau, do I have this right, that because of the large financial commitments made to the production and development of RADARSAT-2, MDA was in fact operating the satellite under licence from the Government of Canada?

March 5th, 2008 / 4:40 p.m.

Former President, Canadian Space Agency, As an Individual

Marc Garneau

Are you talking about RADARSAT-1?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bruce Stanton Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Both.

4:40 p.m.

Former President, Canadian Space Agency, As an Individual

Marc Garneau

Well, RADARSAT-1 was a separate arrangement, and the operator of RADARSAT-1 was the Canadian Space Agency. We operated it. The data, however, were marketed by MDA through their subsidiary, RADARSAT International. They were quite successful in marketing this imagery to well over 60 countries, and they had a worldwide reputation and a network—in fact, a network of ground stations—throughout the world.

The promising success with RADARSAT-1 led to the decision by the government to go into this public-private partnership for RADARSAT-2, because this was a unique opportunity for Canada to capture the market with even higher-definition imagery, a market that the Canadian government and MDA clearly felt was going to exist. So it would not only satisfy government requirements with respect to sovereignty, security, etc., but it would also allow MDA to capture a very important segment of the imagery market.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Bruce Stanton Conservative Simcoe North, ON

I am out of time. Thank you very much, Mr. Garneau.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you, Mr. Stanton.

We'll go now to Monsieur Vincent.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This afternoon's testimony is proving to be quite interesting. I've learned that the federal government injected $434 million in the development of this satellite. It invested no less than $155 million in other MDA projects and $30 million in national security. Now, after making all of these investments, it is prepared to sell RADARSAT-2.

You also spoke about surveillance activities in the Northwest Passage. This has been a key part of this afternoon's discussions. The fact remains that ATK is a company undergoing a complete strategic restructuring. Where once it manufactured munitions, the company is now becoming a leader in the field of advanced precision weaponry, space technology and the production of increasingly sophisticated combat weapons. Their strategy includes the purchase of companies that own technologies capable of improving their ability to manufacture high-tech weapons.

Therefore, if the company purchases RADARSAT-2, do you think it will do more than just monitor activities on Canadian soil?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Go ahead, Mr. Byers.

4:40 p.m.

Professor, Canada Research Chair (Tier One) in Global Politics and International Law, University of British Columbia

Michael Byers

Thank you for that.

RADARSAT-2 is particularly good at the mapping of sea ice. It can actually measure the thickness of the ice. This is part of the reason we developed it; part of the way it was developed was to fulfill this kind of purpose. It's very good at tracking vessels; it is even reportedly able to detect submarines that are in relatively shallow water, as they might be were they entering the Northwest Passage. So this technology is almost purpose-built and purpose-designed for our northern sovereignty assertion needs.

It just happens, in parallel to that, to be extraordinarily good for a host of military applications, including tracking armoured vehicles at night through clouds and helping to identify targets of various kinds. It's this dichotomy between the peaceful purposes and the military purposes that to some degree engages the discussion we're having today, because ATK doesn't want it for ice mapping; it wants it for the military applications. Canada needs it for these peaceful purposes.

Whether Canada might wish to explore some of these other purposes as well is, I think, something this committee needs to consider. We do have armed forces engaged in combat operations overseas that could benefit from this kind of imagery as well. Now, it's pretty obvious that in the context of a coalition with the U.S. armed forces, we're probably sharing imagery very freely, but here's another reason we might want to keep this imagery under our shutter control: if, for instance, in some future scenario we are in a foreign conflict without our American allies, we might decide that we need shutter control in order to get priority imagery so that we can actually protect our soldiers in the field.

There are lots of reasons and lots of applications, but this satellite was built to give us that sovereign capacity--to say we need something here and we need it now.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Ultimately the only ones to benefit from this sale will be ATK, and MDA in particular, given that it has invested, as you mentioned earlier, Mr. Staples, $90 million in the building of this satellite. This company stands to pocket in excess of $1 billion.

Why would the Government of Canada want to sell this satellite and this technology, since it paid for it?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Go ahead, Mr. Staples.

4:45 p.m.

Chair, Rideau Institute on International Affairs

Steven Staples

It's difficult to say.

Clearly we'd have to ask the government about that, but in some cases you've seen arguments that foreign investment in a particular Canadian industry could be beneficial in terms of building more jobs and more investment within Canada. You could see it perhaps in the auto sector or other industries, but in this one in particular, because it's of this particular nature. It's in defence-oriented capacities of a highly classified aspect, areas in which we already have problems within ITAR. Some workers have been sent off the line in some Canadian plants in other areas because of ITAR issues with dual nationalities. So I think that's really a question for the government to answer: where is the benefit to Canada from the sale?

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

Do you think that we have been backed into a corner by the Americans and forced to sell our satellite? Why would we even consider selling it?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Okay.

This is your last question.

Mr. Byers, do you want to answer?

4:45 p.m.

Professor, Canada Research Chair (Tier One) in Global Politics and International Law, University of British Columbia

Michael Byers

One doesn't need to be a conspiracy theorist to be concerned about this sale.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

Thank you.

On that note, we'll go now to Mr. Van Kesteren.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

You mean the conspiracy note?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Rajotte

No, no.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for coming.

There's another obvious fact, and nobody is talking about it. I think everybody knows that this government and previous governments have spent a large amount of money--I think it's something to the tune of $9.7 billion. Recently I think there was $3 billion provided at arm's length to organizations for science and technology. I think our last budget invested $2.7 billion.

On the one hand, it's our desire, it's everybody's desire, it's Canadians' desire, I think, to build a strong science and technology industrial base. On the other hand, the government is the guardian of the public purse.

Mr. Thompson, I applaud you for your stand of principle, but you're the only person here who's from MDA. How many employees do you have in this company?

4:45 p.m.

Spacecraft systems engineer, MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates Ltd., As an Individual

Hugh Thompson

There are about 3,000 employees worldwide.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Now, if--

4:45 p.m.

Spacecraft systems engineer, MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates Ltd., As an Individual

Hugh Thompson

Not all will go as part of this transaction.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON

Okay, but it's a fairly large organization.

In my hometown riding we have a truck plant, and they always like to talk about order papers on the board. How many order papers do you have on the board? Do you have orders for more of these things?

4:50 p.m.

Spacecraft systems engineer, MacDonald, Dettwiler and Associates Ltd., As an Individual

Hugh Thompson

Well, MDA is quite a diverse company that does a lot of different things.