Evidence of meeting #35 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was patent.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Harry Page  Chief Executive Officer, UBM TechInsights
Richard Gold  Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual
Chris Tortorice  Corporate Counsel, Microsoft Canada Inc.
Dale Ptycia  Senior Manager, Licensing, Hockey Canada

10:30 a.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

Richard Gold

Yes. I mean, I fully agree with Chris that streamlining procedures and getting to cases is to everybody's benefit, but looking at patent law itself, if you increase, it's always a.... There are two sides of patent, right? If I'm the patent holder, I want to get as much out of it as I can, but people who are doing follow-on research, improving it, making it better, and who are often better positioned to actually put a product on the market, can be negatively affected if the patent right is just too long or too broad.

So there's always a compromise. In the last dozen years in the United States, we've seen the Supreme Court pulling back and giving more rights to users. For example, the big pharmaceutical company Merck was able to do research on an anti-cancer drug, free of having to worry about the patent, because of a decision in the U.S.

So every time you give more rights to the current patent holders, it's the next generation of innovator that suffers. That's point number one.

The second point just goes back to the cross-border issue. The ideal situation is that Canadian companies have infinite patent rights in the United States and Europe, and no patent rights here, because that would give us the market. We sell it and we get to do whatever we want here. Obviously it's not realistic, but we have to understand that the pull is being driven by U.S. markets, and Canadian law has to have at least subtleties to allow the research and development of it without being overly constrained. So if you go too far, you have an opportunity to constrain innovation.

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you.

Do I have any time left?

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

You have one minute left.

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Okay.

I'm interested in this whole idea of using the number of patents to measure innovations. Is there a different way you...? Obviously we should count the number of patents, but we shouldn't rely on that. Do you have any other suggestions on specific measures?

10:30 a.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

Richard Gold

Just to go back to that, when Japan changed its patent laws in 1980 they suddenly had a doubling in the number of patents. There was no more innovation, it was just....

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Kennedy Stewart NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Right.

10:30 a.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

Richard Gold

We have a lot of universities patenting everything. Instead of getting one patent, they'll get three, just to meet those numbers.

What I think you have to do is measure such things as where the knowledge is going. Again, it's tracking very difficult things. It goes back to the previous question, about where graduate students are going, the nature of the licences, the funding from industry to universities, the terms of those, getting a better feel, and then throwing the social scientists at it and trying to extract learning.

We also need probably the CIPO database to go back in history. It's not particularly user-friendly. We can draw relatively little information out of the Canadian system, because the data is just not there.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much, Mr. Gold, Mr. Page, Mr. Tortorice, and Mr. Ptycia. You gave some very good answers to some very tough questions, and we appreciate it.

We have an estimated time of some situations in the House we have to respond to, so we want to thank you and set you free to go. We have to have a brief conversation among our members before the bells go.

Was the question pretty well put, Madame LeBlanc, regarding the...? You just wanted a response from the government regarding a report or whatever? Is that the case?

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

We're just wondering whether or not we're going to compile a report and report to the House, because the motion didn't have that in it. I think it was more of a housekeeping mistake.

We don't want to spend all this money and time on witnesses and not have a report.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

I think I touched on that at a previous meeting. If the members of the NDP weren't so busy listening to themselves, they would have heard me indicate that I was in fact interested in seeing a report come out of this study, and see recommendations develop.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

But in your motion—

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

If we could actually get on with the study and stop playing frivolous games—

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

That's what you're doing right now.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Order. Hang on just a second.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Why didn't your motion include this?

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Mr. Masse, hang on.

The translators can't work without decorum at a meeting. They can't do the job.

I'll go to Mr. Braid, and then I'll go back to you.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

As I was saying when I was rudely interrupted by Mr. Masse, I had indicated at a previous meeting that the intention is to see a report come out of this important study, with recommendations.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Well, your motion never had that, so.... I mean, you can blame us all you want for your lack of planning in your motion, but the reality is that we're just raising it here.

You can try to throw it out as a partisan-type thing, but had you actually tabled a motion that had that in it, we would have supported that part of it.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Completely unnecessary. The indication is clear: we wish to see a report with recommendations.

I'm not sure why you can't take yes for an answer, Mr. Masse, today.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

It's because of your comments; I have to actually respond to them, because they're inaccurate.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Mr. Masse, your own colleague wants to speak here.

10:35 a.m.

NDP

Dan Harris NDP Scarborough Southwest, ON

Rather than just firing back and forth, and the government expecting everybody to just assume that this is what they meant, let's actually put that into the motion, then, and deal with the issue.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Well, I think it's done. It's on record now. We've accomplished what we wanted to.

We know that any second the light will flash and the klaxon will go in the House, so the meeting is adjourned.