Industry Committee on April 24th, 2018

[Carol Shepstone]

I'll respond to that. As the Érudit project or partnership with PKP in the launch of Coalition Publi.ca is in partnership with CRKN, I guess I would start by saying that there is always room for some additional investment in ensuring that we have French content, particularly French scholarly content.

That's a rather broad answer, but I think this project is a really interesting model and a transitional program that's taking scholarly content that was in subscription form and moving or transitioning that over into open access in a sustainable and supportive way. Absolutely. This was also funded through CFI and SSHRC as well, so that was really beneficial in making this shift.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Does current legislation cover that?

[Carol Shepstone]

It was a partnership that was enabled; it wasn't hindered or advanced, I would say, by the legislation.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

In beginner's courses, we get access to information, and it gets harder and harder the further you get in, because publishers aren't covering the research and the costs of producing more scholarly journals, so we're taking American journals into beginners' courses and not having access to Canadian information as you get further along.

Do any of you have comments on that?

[Carol Shepstone]

It is certainly true that, of that $125 million, about $122 million is spent on international journals, if you will. However, I would add that many of those international journals include Canadian scholarly content. It's a really challenging analysis to pull out or parse out Canadian scholarly content in those international journals and to still balance Canadian scholarly content produced here in Canada.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I want to follow up on that, because it was one of the questions I was thinking about. How has the response been from international journalists having been exposed to maybe a different system than elsewhere, especially with open access? Is there still an interest in getting into the Canadian market, or has it waned a little bit if there is more sharing? Has there been any response at all? We have changed our copyright in the last number of years, so what has been the response from the international community?

[Carol Shepstone]

In terms of international scholarly journals?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes.

[Carol Shepstone]

I would say that, via CRKN and other research institutions, we will purchase whatever scholarly content we can afford and is needed, regardless of where it's produced, as long as it's supporting the research enterprise. Obviously, there's a need to support Canadian-produced scholarly content as well, but we do purchase it regardless of its origin, as long as it's affordable, if I'm understanding your question.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You are kind of not a trapped customer, but you're—

[Carol Shepstone]

A little bit....

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I didn't want to say it, I guess.

I want to follow with Mr. McDonald with regard to the divergence of platforms that's taken place. What has been your experience from those who are now taking advantage of more openness in terms of actually trying to get remuneration or some of types of supports for—I guess—the compromise. You may have a different business model from what you had before.

[Michael McDonald]

We think that, depending on the open format you're talking about, this is going to be a changing business format. For something like an open educational resources environment, this is something that's relatively new that generally is provincially supported. It's something that, depending on the model its been based on, has been up to a few million dollars a year based on course books that were in high demand. So, if you were in a 101 course in British Columbia—a base-level course—that had high enrolment, they were going to create a textbook in that kind of environment.

The one thing about these kinds of processes is that they do snowball. The interesting thing about any kind of open format is that the next time the funding comes forward, maybe the project is to translate that textbook, or maybe the process is to make this textbook more regionally specific to interior British Columbia. These are the kinds of things this base content allows for and then you can build off in those granting models. We think that can be a very successful way of delivering really innovative content and Canada-centric content.

One of the big benefits of this material is that it can be very easily tailored. Right now, every one of us can go on the Open BCcampus site and grab those textbooks, and you'd be able to bring those forward. If professors take that, bring it into their course plan, amend it, and get approval from their department, that's delivered, and it's delivered in a really clear way to the individuals involved.

We do think that in some models there are places we are concerned about. When it comes to some of the open access discussions, we're strong supporters of it, but we do think the one thing that needs to be ensured is that especially young researchers and the emerging researchers don't have to pay the upfront fees. They're very often expected to still get published in that kind of a format, which can sometimes range up to $1,000.

Those kinds of things can be a burden and might not be expected on that original research grant, and we think those things need to be considered in those environments as well.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

We have a little bit of time left, so we're going to do five minutes and, I believe, five minutes on this side as well.

Mr. Baylis, you have five minutes.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have a simple question, and then I'll be passing it on to Mr. Graham.

From a library's perspective, it's an interesting question. Can you tell us how you think we might be able, as a government, to help you help our Canadian creators?

[Susan Haigh]

We have been in discussions with the Canadian journals and others recently. It relates to Érudit to some degree, as well. We're very interested, because we support and host journals. Canadian research libraries host more than 400 Canadian journals. We want them to survive and thrive. We're trying to figure out ways. We've had committees that have involved all of us to try to sort it out.

I think the fundamental issue is that, whilst you can do collective platforms so that you're reducing the costs of production, there are a lot of things like that. That, in some ways, is what the government is investing in with Érudit, as well; so a collective platform is a very good idea.

However, there is some cost to the production of content, and it gets a little tricky to know how best to support it. I believe that's where the government can step in. We have been talking with SSHRC about the aid to journals program and how it's reshaping itself a little bit too fast in the open access direction and to help the journals as they're transitioning. I think that's the right kind of investment from the government, because it's helpful to keep the content generating.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Haigh.

Go ahead, David.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Dubois, Ms. Aubry, I have a few questions for you.

You talked about a loss of $30 million in royalties for writers who use collectives. I assume you are talking about an annual loss for all of Canada. However, the amounts universities and others spend are on the rise. You are trying to explain that paradox.

Is it possible that the reason is found in digital content and among authors who do not use collectives?

[Suzanne Aubry]

What we know is that it's less money for copyright holders—publishers and writers.

We specified that there may indeed be more copyright holders, which might partly explain an increase in university spending, but we don't have precise data on that. We could try to obtain it in response to your question, but we don't have it right now.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay.

However, it is known that publishers make more money now than before. Do you have an explanation for that? The drop in revenues concerns those who use collectives, and not content producers. Do you agree with that?

[Laurent Dubois]

The question should be put to the Association nationale des éditeurs de livres. We are unable to provide you with specific figures from the publishing industry.

[Suzanne Aubry]

We would really like to have those figures.