Evidence of meeting #102 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael McDonald  Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Susan Haigh  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Research Libraries
Carol Shepstone  Past Vice-Chair, Chief Librarian, Ryerson University, Canadian Research Knowledge Network
Laurent Dubois  General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)
Suzanne Aubry  President, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)
Mark Swartz  Program Officer, Canadian Association of Research Libraries

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Pardon?

April 24th, 2018 / 4:55 p.m.

General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Laurent Dubois

We would also very much like to have the figures because that would have a direct impact on how much our writers make, but the question should be put to publishers.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Do you think software or content pirates would accept to pay for those products if access to them was sufficiently controlled? Would they instead choose to forego them?

4:55 p.m.

General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Laurent Dubois

I think they would accept to pay for them, but I have a feeling you don't agree with me. You are asking for my opinion, and I am giving it to you. Unfortunately, I don't have more specific arguments.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Are you aware of the fact that the fair dealing exception for content exempts the user from requesting the author's permission?

4:55 p.m.

President, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Suzanne Aubry

Copibec could potentially answer those questions.

Generally speaking, Copibec negotiates agreements and licenses with educational institutions. When the content is used, it means that the author has given their permission because they delegated to Copibec the responsibility of negotiating that license. As long as the content is covered by a license, authors are deemed to have agreed through that license, and there is no issue.

Does that answer your question?

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

That is the beginning of an answer, yes.

Are you cutting me off?

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

I believe that Mr. Jowhari had questions.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Okay. Sure.

Majid.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I just want to share an observation that we've made on this side. I want to get your perspective and to help us fill in the blanks.

We've noticed that the revenue or income for creators looks like it's on a downward slope. If we have a graph with timelines and revenue, what we've noticed is that creators' revenue is trending downward. It looks like expenses for libraries are going up. We talked about the $200 million and the $370 million. I've done some searching around student's expenses as they relate to the material, and I would say that these expenses are on an incline. It might be with a different slope.

I'd like your opinion on the other stakeholder group, which in my mind would be the publisher. Where would you say that revenues or costs are trending for publishers, and how would it fit in the diagram?

Michael, do you want to start?

5 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Michael McDonald

I would say that, overall, the post-secondary education sector to a degree is similar to the health care sector. It just experiences a higher inflation rate. The material and inputs that go into post-secondary rise at a higher rate than general inflation. This includes any kind of academic and literature materials, and this includes a lot of the inputs that are expected at a post-secondary institution, like any kind of machinery and that kind of material. A lot of what's necessary to produce even that academic content becomes more expensive and comes through. I don't have knowledge of the publishing sector to a degree that I would feel comfortable giving you an informed answer. However, it does seem that, in an instance, both sides of this discussion are clearly feeling the pinch in this. I think this is something that is a global discussion. You are seeing these same kind of cost pushes in a variety of other markets.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mark, do you want to comment on that?

5 p.m.

Program Officer, Canadian Association of Research Libraries

Mark Swartz

To understand where the library money is going, you have to understand the shifting landscape by digital disruption. There has been a profound shift in the types of contents that are being used in and purchased by libraries. One good analogy is that it's very similar to the transition that the music industry went through a couple of year ago. In the music industry, you used to buy individual MP3s and CDs, and now a lot of people are buying monthly subscriptions and getting all their music in that way, from Apple Music and Spotify. Libraries have also gone through that profound shift. Most of the money spent by university libraries isn't going to individual purchases of individual books; they're going to large corporations, and these corporations aren't often publishing scholarly works, literary works or textbooks.

Most of that money is going to five major corporations—Elsevier, Springer, Taylor & Francis, Wiley, and SAGE. They're really dominating the scholarly journal market, and they're pushing up price subscriptions. This is a major issue for academia, but it's not necessarily directly related to copyright. We feel the government can help in that regard. We'd encourage you to continue to promote open access, openly available materials. Open government initiative for crown materials is another great example of how you can keep providing support. Enhance the capacity of Canadian scholars to publish in locally run journals. Other ways that we would consider helpful, because so much of our content is licensed now, would be any ways we can use the exceptions in the act for licensed material. If we have a contract that protects works, it would be useful if we could have an override or legal ways of accessing information, like fair dealing. Or if those works are protected by technical protection measures, it would be useful if circumvention were allowed for legal purposes like fair dealing.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you.

Ms. Aubry, do you want to add anything? You have 30 seconds.

5 p.m.

President, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Suzanne Aubry

I would just like to make a general comment on innovation and creation.

Authors should not be forced to sacrifice royalties because, over the short or the long term, content will disappear with no creators to write it.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Okay. Thank you very much.

The final question of the day goes to Mr. Lloyd.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be splitting my time with my colleague Mr. Jeneroux.

One observation that I've made throughout this process is what somebody once said to me, that the better the system you have, the more expensive that system will be. If we want better health care, it's going to be more expensive. I think Canada has one of the best education systems in the world, and we see that cost reflected in rising tuition rates and rising textbook rates. It seems that we're not willing to accept sub-par textbooks, and even in my time in university, textbooks were not just textbooks, but you had websites associated with them and CDs came with them. It's just amazing that there's so much more than what we were used to have in the past. That cost needs to be reflected.

Mr. McDonald, you mentioned that the education sector has higher inflation than other sectors. Can you explain what you think the causes are of that higher inflation in the education sector?

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Michael McDonald

Obviously, the additional demands in the educational sector where you are trying to push the bounds of knowledge lead you to invest in significant machinery: the updating of buildings and of course materials, and hiring good people who are exceptionally good teachers and exceptionally good researchers to staff these facilities. All these are fought over right now in the international community. These are precious commodities and things that you are trying to be right on the leading edge of at all times, which, as in any sector, will make it more expensive.

It's also one of the reasons there are significant pushes for cost efficiencies throughout the post-secondary education sector. Governments and the public have demanded that. If these textbooks are good, are there other models? Something like an open educational resources model has demonstrated there are other really effective means by which to produce some content. So if a calculus 101 book, which has very consistent content, can be built on in a public environment, it can be very successful. It will be rated just as good as the textbooks purchased in other situations.

We think, again, that this is part and parcel of operating in a public environment and something in which, overall, we think all of the actors want make sure they are getting the most bang for their buck—and that includes the public. That is one we understand. We also understand that we will all still need to look to those kinds of efficiencies to make this both effective and affordable for everyone.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

In your response to an earlier question, you had alluded to alternative mechanisms for compensating creators. Could you maybe tell the committee of some examples you can think of?

5:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Michael McDonald

This is also different depending on the creator. When discussing this, I also think it is incredibly important to recognize that different creators in different spheres will need different mechanisms. Obviously, in some forms of research, tri-agency funding and real commitment to scientific research in the country is key and making sure that's well supported. When it comes to things like a public lending right, other mechanisms by which we can provide compensation could include grants to create certain kinds of textbooks. Again, provinces are doing this right now, and these are mechanisms that could be used. These are going to be different, depending on the sphere they're going to be working in, and we think they need to be best tailored to those environments.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB

Okay.

That last question goes to you.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Monsieur Dubois and Madame Aubry, you answered a question on the technological protection measures and gave your position on those. How do you reconcile your position when this falls under the WIPO and the Berne convention—those international agreements? I'm hoping you can clarify your position on those.

There's a dramatic pause.

5:05 p.m.

General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Laurent Dubois

Could you repeat the question? I'm sorry, but I did not understand it.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

In an earlier question you were asked about technological protection measures. You stated your position on that. I am just hoping that you can reconcile that position, that we fall under WIPO and under the Berne convention—the international agreements. How do you reconcile your position on TPMs, digital locks, under those agreements?

5:05 p.m.

General Manager, Union des écrivaines et des écrivains québécois (UNEQ)

Laurent Dubois

I cannot answer you right now because your question concerns technical considerations for which we have no answer.