Evidence of meeting #103 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glenn Rollans  President, Association of Canadian Publishers
Alupa Clarke  Beauport—Limoilou, CPC
Victoria Owen  Chief Librarian, University of Toronto Scarborough, Canadian Federation of Library Associations
John Degen  Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada
Denise Amyot  President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada
Kate Edwards  Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers
Mark Hanna  Associate Dean, The Business School, Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning, and Representative, Colleges and Institutes Canada
Katherine McColgan  Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Library Associations

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you.

It's been a very interesting conversation.

My first question is actually for the colleges.

Ms. Amyot, when you did your opening statement, you talked about how you felt that the right balance had been reached in 2012, yet I'm trying to reconcile that with what I'm hearing from the other side of the table, which is that they don't feel that balance. I'm wondering, given that you're telling us the right balance has been reached, how do you reconcile that, because we're hearing different things?

4:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada

Denise Amyot

It's a very good question. I gave some numbers. I think I will reiterate them if I may.

About 70% have maintained or increased their licensing expenditures since 2012, plus we note that they have spent more in library acquisitions, both print and electronic—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

If I could stop you, the only reason is that I know that Mr. Baylis has asked for all of the numbers from everyone, and I don't have very much time. Essentially I was just hoping you could try to explain. Are you saying his numbers don't bear out what they're saying?

4:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada

Denise Amyot

Yes, and I'll tell you, it's because the landscape has changed. Right now we are only looking at things as if they were the same. If you look at the music industry, it has changed a lot in the last five years. If you look at the way we shop, it has changed a lot in the last five years. If you look at the way we watch movies, it has changed a lot. We used to have to go somewhere or we needed to go physically. If you just talk to Humber, Mark was telling me that now 80% of their acquisitions are things that are online.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Some of the examples you're using are personal use, and I think actually if I heard the Writers' Union right, there's been a distinction drawn between personal use and institutional use, which is what they've been getting at. The fact is that it's being reached differently, but there's still content that's being used in the classes and that's what the concern is that I'm hearing over here.

Maybe I'll skip to something else. I'm not sure I've figured out how to reconcile this, because that's what's being asked of this committee ultimately. I've also heard a reference to 600 million pages every year being copied. I'm not sure, first of all, if you could tell us what the source is for that information, because that might help.

Mr. Degen.

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

John Degen

My understanding is that most of that number, or at least over half of that number, comes from the York trial, so we're talking about evidence. We're talking about actual testing of copying that happened on a university campus in Canada. The rest would be what's historical from the licence.

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers

Kate Edwards

They're from submissions to the Copyright Board and assessments of the tariff. Again, these are evidence-based, real copies made in Canadian institutions, and that has not changed in the last five years.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Then going back just to try to figure out how we go from there....

If I heard you correctly, Dr. Hanna, you were saying that you try very stringently to make sure that the copyright is followed in the way it is. What do you say to that 600 million figure for copying? What do you do to ensure that people in your institution are aware of what the rules are when they're copying?

4:50 p.m.

Associate Dean, The Business School, Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning, and Representative, Colleges and Institutes Canada

Dr. Mark Hanna

I can speak to that. I can't speak to the 600 million copied pages, but I will say that, again, we rely heavily on publisher content in the classrooms, and we tend to use fair dealing more as supplementary material to add a different perspective to a particular topic.

In terms of making our faculty aware, we actually started with an awareness campaign. We called it “iCopyright” and we distributed tool kits and various educational materials. We followed that up by mandatory training where we actually have a copyright module where faculty has to get 100% on that copyright quiz for it to be considered completed in terms of the training. We also have a very robust library staff that I can support with my background in intellectual property with more of the complex questions.

Faculty, again, really want to make sure they're not outside of the law, so they will come to the copyright department at the college and ask, “Is this okay? Can we do this?” We take a very conservative approach. If we're not sure, we say no. If we think it's a grey area, we'll say no. That has been our experience.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to Mr. Masse, who has two minutes.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Degen, I cut you off early before, but in the subsequent testimony.... The issue of Canadian content and culture here is really important. My concern is that, even as we go through this process, even if there's a recommendation to break down the current copyright laws in place, by the time that would be tabled in Parliament, be subsequently re-tabled, and go through the Senate, we'll probably be outside this electoral cycle.

What else can we do in the meantime if nothing changes? You're expressing, I think, very unique concerns amongst the parties.

4:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

John Degen

We're well aware of the length of the timeline, and it's quite painful to us. I would say that the best quick fix right now would be the Copyright Board, speeding up the process of the Copyright Board, making the decisions of the Copyright Board clearly mandatory—which we believe they are already, but maybe carve that in stone for those who don't believe it—and putting statutory damages in place for non-compliance.

Our relationship with the Copyright Board is very similar to the colleges' relationship to the Copyright Board in the sense that we wait a very long time for the result, and our royalties are held in check until the decisions. Our relationship is slightly different in that we actually follow the rulings of the Copyright Board.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Could I have a question reported to our researchers? Perhaps we could get an analysis from them in terms of decision-making time frames from the Copyright Board, maybe going back perhaps 10 years, perhaps even 20 years—that might be much too long—but I'd like to see if there's a trend in terms of copyright decisions. We've heard this enough from various witnesses. It would be interesting to find out if that timeline has changed or whether or not that needs adjusting under the digital age that we're now emerged under.

I believe that's probably the end of my time.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you.

We're having so much fun that we're going to go a second round of seven minutes, and we will call it a day after that.

Having said that, Ms. Ng, you have seven minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Thank you so much to everyone for coming here and providing us with very helpful information.

There's clearly something that we're trying to understand, and I'm hoping that, through your testimonies, we will be able to better understand and get closer and closer to surfacing where that gap might be so that we can indeed continue the flourishing of Canadian content, which is so important to our country, and yet, at the same time, make that wonderful content available to our young people and people in our institutions, because they so depend on it.

I'm going to veer a bit in my question. The universities, colleges, and the institutions that are institutions of learning have these wonderful young people who go in, use material, learn from the material, and from there, they are innovating and they are creating. They are creating new and additional products or digital innovations, and I don't even know what the future is. The answer is that there's going to be wonderful future, and a lot of that will be done using the very works that are created by authors, by writers, and by many of our content creators in this country.

I would like to hear people's views as we look into the future. How do you look at this in terms of new work that is created? How do we achieve that balance? There's no question that there are some gaps there. There are gaps here, and I know that we'll get further into that in distant future testimony, but I also want to jump into the future and look at where we're going.

Maybe I'll start with Mr. Degen. How do you treat it? You have these new people who are going to create something wonderful and new, but perhaps also off of material from you and your members.

4:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

John Degen

What I would say is that it's very hard to prove a negative, obviously. What I would say in response to that is that I think there has been a suppression of creation of new works since 2010 and 2012. It's very ironic and unfortunate, because in 2013 Alice Munro won the Nobel Prize, and the eyes of the world turned to Canadian writing. If Canadian publishers are doing very well right now, perhaps it's because foreign sales have increased. I don't know for sure, but I'll let Kate answer that.

For the world to be looking at us and inviting us—we're going to be the country of honour at Frankfurt Book Fair in 2020—for all of that to be happening at the same time that Canadian writers are feeling alienated from their own education system, and in many cases, unable to continue, is a very unfortunate situation for us to be in.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Thank you.

Maybe we will just keep going through.

4:55 p.m.

President, Association of Canadian Publishers

Glenn Rollans

Again, I think it's a really robust solution to attach value and payment. It's flexible. It encourages innovation.

I'm always very worried when I'm asked to prove damage because we've been through a period of six years now from the amendment of the Copyright Act that should have been no holds barred. By that I mean we should have been expanding. We should have been making a bigger contribution than we were able to make to the Canadian economy and to Canadian life.

If you attach value to the use of value, if you reward the creation of value, you have something that will respond to changes in technology, changes in buyer preferences, tastes in fiction. It's a very robust and flexible system. When you break that chain—and I worry when I hear that the solutions are the public lending right, for example—and say you will have an allowance and can do your thing. We're not a craft. We're a profession. We've earned our chops. We do what we do because it's valuable to us and it's valuable to others. Seeing that reflection in the return makes it possible for us to keep doing it and to adjust to the times.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Thank you.

To the others, please....

5 p.m.

Chief Librarian, University of Toronto Scarborough, Canadian Federation of Library Associations

Victoria Owen

I think that's a great question.

We saw in the 2012 amendments the addition of user-generated content. I think that's something that addresses the future. We look at how people can use, rework, use material that is already there, riff off of it, and create something new.

That's an exception. I think it goes to the overall...the distribution of rights. Nobody is disputing that the majority of rights rests with the creators and the rights holders, but there is this little sliver of rights that are exceptions to those, and that's the area we're talking about. It's limited, so it isn't the kind of threat it's being characterized as.

I also think when we're looking at things like text and data mining—I think the chief librarian at Ryerson University also brought this up—what can we do with artificial intelligence in the future? Have a copyright act that's quite flexible and that can be creative. I think you want it to be open to those kinds of creative opportunities that are protected and within the realm of intellectual property.

Those are just some examples.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Thank you.

Let's be really quick because I'm going to share some time with my colleague, David Lametti.

Please, go ahead, Dr. Hanna or Ms. Amyot.

5 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada

Denise Amyot

There is something very important that maybe some members around this table are not aware of. I think as we move further, we need to be adaptable to changing technology, but we need to be inclusive. Why do I say “inclusive”? It's because we want to make sure that nobody is left behind.

Do you know that now, and I will quote my members, “Currently it is not permissible to break a digital lock even to create closed captions”, which is an accessibility requirement in many provinces such as Ontario and other provinces? Therefore—

5 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

I'm going to stop you there because I think, David, you wanted to get something in here.

April 26th, 2018 / 5 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Yes. We get submissions from various people as part of the committee, and we have submissions from two small Canadian publishers. Broadview Press claim in their submission to us that their annual revenue is $3.5 million and that the drop in Access Copyright revenue for them is $30,000. That's a drop of less than 1%. House of Anansi Press in their submission to us say their annual revenue is $7 million with a loss of about $15,000 to $17,000 in Access Copyright money in the education sector. Again, that's a loss of less than 1%, actually a quarter of 1%.

That seems to be a very different picture for small Canadian publishers in terms of their loss from Access Copyright revenues than we're being told. That's in their very own submissions to us.