Evidence of meeting #103 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Mr. Clarke, I have to stop you here, as your time is really up.
Mr. Masse, you have seven minutes if you'd like to use it.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Rollans, you've advocated for a change to the system now. If we don't get to that change, as I was mentioning to Mr. Degen prior to this round—I've heard again that you noted the Copyright Board as a potential—what would be the things to prioritize in the interim? If there's a concern that's being expressed now, even as this committee goes about its process, are there things that should be done under the current administration of the law that's been put in place that would be helpful at this time?
5:10 p.m.
President, Association of Canadian Publishers
There have been some mentioned, but I would add one. I think that the Government of Canada has significant financial leverage in the post-secondary sector in particular. I know that, as a publisher, if I apply for public funding, I'm asked to demonstrate that I'm paying contributors to publications properly. I have to demonstrate that my royalty account is up to date and that it's auditable. I think it's reasonable to suggest that if the Government of Canada wants the post-secondary sector to relicense, that it could make that a condition of funding, and I'd recommend that.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Just to follow up with regard to the Copyright Board—and I want to make sure there is consensus here for that—if the current Copyright Board structure were one where the decisions were made in a relatively predictable time frame and were enforced, would that be a preferred step forward?
It seems what we're hearing, not only from you but from other witnesses, is that it's an anomaly to understand when a decision will take place, and then there seems to be some lack of clarity about what takes places after the decision.
I'll start with Mr. Degen and go across the board. Ms. Amyot, if you want to add something, then you can with the remainder of my time, because you were cheated earlier.
5:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada
Enforcement first is what I would say, if we're talking about options—enforcement or speed it up.
We have decisions done and on the books that are not being paid. In just one of them, there is $9 million a year that is not being paid to our sector by the educational sector. This is a tariff that has been decided by the Copyright Board. Yes, we need enforcement right away.
5:15 p.m.
President, Association of Canadian Publishers
I agree with that, and I'll just add the point that the Copyright Board is well down the road from licensing. In an ideal relationship, if the right incentives and the right sanctions are in place, we'll be back at the table any time, literally. I will travel anywhere in the country to work towards negotiated licences. That's the preference.
If we can't reach agreement on a negotiated licence that matches payment to value, the Copyright Board is a really important backup.
5:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Library Associations
I would say that one of the main things is that any decisions that are made would not be retroactive, so a decision would be made and then carried forward but it can't be expected to be applied going back three or four years.
The second point is that if there is a tariff regime, it should be optional, because there are many other sources. We mentioned that you can acquire information and we pay lots of money in licensing, so—
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Okay, but I'm really more interested in the current model that's operating. I'm not asking you to change the model of the Copyright Board.
Do you subscribe to its current operational methods if it would have a quicker turnaround in terms of the decision-making process, and would you live with it or abide by its decisions? If you don't, that's okay, but I'm trying to get a sense as to whether that structure can be used in the interim, or whether it should be something else.
5:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Library Associations
There need to be more resources put toward it to make it more efficient, as has already been mentioned.
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada
Change the interrogatory process to make it shorter and less burdensome.
Mark may have another example.
5:15 p.m.
Associate Dean, The Business School, Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning, and Representative, Colleges and Institutes Canada
I guess you don't want to speak to the issue of the mandatory tariff at this point.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I'm sure I'm out of time.
Maybe you can make that submission later. I'm just trying to get a general idea as to whether or not—at least at the starting point, as we go about this process—there are some fixable items that perhaps we could address. That's all I'm looking for now.
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada
One of the things is that there needs to be compliance between the Copyright Act and the Accessibility Act. This is a must.
5:15 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I'm glad you added that, as a former job developer on behalf of persons with disabilities. The Marrakesh treaty is only good if it actually relates to a product at the end of the day.
5:15 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada
Exactly, yes.
5:15 p.m.
Chief Librarian, University of Toronto Scarborough, Canadian Federation of Library Associations
On the Copyright Board, one of the things we would look for is regarding the interrogatories, that the interrogatories only applied to the institutions before the board.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you.
I would like a couple of clarifications, and I have one question.
Ms. Owen, when you say that the percentage of profit has increased, I would like just to point out that I'd rather have a 9% profit on $1 million of sales than a 10% profit on $100,000. It's a nice number to throw out, but it's actually meaningless unless you have the actual profit amounts. The percentage of profit can go up, but the actual profits can go down radically. I point that out.
Ms. Amyot, I would like to come back to the fact that 70% of your institutions pay more or pay the same amount. I would again like to point out that I am interested in knowing what amounts are given to Canadian creators. Germans may be paid more, but I'm interested in our Canadian creators.
Ms. Edwards, you said something about an Australian model. Can you elaborate a bit on that, please?
5:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers
Australia has a statutory licence in place. All schools are licensed. That rate is negotiated between the educational institutions and the sector. The current rate for K-to-12 schools, just as an example, is close to $17 per full-time equivalent. That rate has been in place since 2012, with that revenue being distributed back to rights holders.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Is that for Australian rights holders or for those outside Australia as well?
5:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers
They have a reciprocal agreement with Canadian copyright collectives. Some of the revenue Glenn mentioned earlier that is coming to Canadian rights holders from foreign sources would come from Australia if Canadian content is being used in those schools.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Australia made these certain levels of charges per grade. Is that what I understand? Then there's a collective that drives it back to Australia and to foreign writers as well?
5:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers
Yes. There's a rate for the equivalent of K-to-12 schools here, and then a rate for post-secondary institutions.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Do they have as well a fair dealing carve-out that works, or do they not have one? What do they have?
5:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers
They do. Fair dealing for education is in place, but in a licensed context.