Evidence of meeting #104 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investments.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Knubley  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Welcome, everybody, to meeting 104 of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. Today, pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), we will be reviewing the main estimates related to the Department of Industry.

Today we have with us the Honourable Kirsty Duncan, Minister of Science and Minister of Sport and Persons with Disabilities; John Knubley, Deputy Minister; and David McGovern, Associate Deputy Minister.

We're going to get right into it so we don't lose time.

Minister, you have up to 10 minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Etobicoke North Ontario

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan LiberalMinister of Science and Minister of Sport and Persons with Disabilities

Mr. Chair and esteemed committee members, thank you for the opportunity to be here on the occasion of the tabling of the main estimates for the 2018-19 fiscal year.

Our government believes that the best investments we can make are in our people.

We believe a growing economy means investing in curiosity, creativity, and innovation. That's why, as you are no doubt aware, our government recently made the biggest investment in research in Canadian history.

We made this investment because research is the engine that drives an innovative economy.

That's right. Budget 2018 sets aside nearly $4 billion to support current and future scientists and researchers.

In addition to the new funding, $2.8 billion will go toward renewing federal laboratories to ensure federal scientists have the infrastructure they need to inform evidence-based decisions about our environment, our health, our communities, and our economy.

Budget 2018 represents the culmination of so much work with so many partners and stakeholders. We believe these investments will encourage current researchers and inspire the next generation.

We want to continue to position Canada at the leading edge of discovery, discovery that improves not only the health and quality of life of Canadians, but also our environment. We want to supercharge the economy with research, enabling the discoveries that create jobs and even entirely new industries.

Take artificial intelligence, for example. Budget 2017 committed $125 million for the pan-Canadian artificial intelligence strategy. This investment is supporting hubs across the country. Industry is taking notice. Alphabet Inc., the parent company of Google, is setting up shop in Toronto, and now The Economist is talking about “Maple Valley”, not just Silicon Valley. People around the globe are asking, “How did Canada do this?”

We also want to improve the lives of Canadians with new breakthroughs in areas like health care.

These investments in research will help lead to new treatments, new medicines, and better care every day for Canadians across the country. We want to build a dynamic 21st-century workforce, one that is equipped with the science, technology, engineering, and math—and I would add arts and design skills—needed to respond to future challenges and opportunities with creativity, courage, and confidence.

Let me share some details. Of the $4-billion investment I mentioned, $1.7 billion is going to support research funded through the granting councils. This includes the single largest investment in discovery research in Canada's history. This will mean better opportunities and increased support for about 21,000 researchers, students, and highly qualified personnel across Canada. That includes $210 million in new funding for our Canada research chairs program.

Already, through the Canada 150 research chairs, we have recruited 25 internationally renowned chair-holders who are making their way to Canadian universities in the coming year from Austria, Australia, France, the United States, New Zealand, South Africa, and the United Kingdom. I'm happy to say that 42% of them are Canadians, returning home because they now see a future in research here in Canada. Let me add, 58% of them are women. They are leaders in their fields, attracted to Canada by the supportive funding and the advantages that our research ecosystem offers.

Budget 2018 also sets aside over $1.3 billion to provide researchers across the country with access to state-of-the-art tools and facilities. This means that over 44,000 students, post-doctoral fellows, and researchers will have access to the equipment they need to carry out groundbreaking research.

I'd also like to highlight an important investment that budget 2018 makes in our world-class colleges and polytechnics. They are a critical innovation bridge between ideas and the marketplace. Through the college and community innovation program we have set aside $140 million to increase support for collaborative innovation projects involving businesses, colleges, and polytechnics. This is the largest research investment ever.

These institutions are critical to innovation. They partner with small businesses in their communities to solve real-world challenges.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to share a local story that illustrates this.

I recently visited the technology access centre at Niagara College. While there, I chatted with a representative of General Electric. He was happy to share that one of the main reasons the company decided to open a manufacturing facility in Welland was the technology access centre in the college. GE saw first-hand how the capabilities of the college could benefit the company. Everything it needed was there, in Welland: access to faculty and research teams; resources and equipment; and highly skilled and knowledgeable graduates in technology, trades, and business. This is huge. Today, the GE brilliant factory employs approximately 200 people.

We are making investments that strike the appropriate balance between discovery research that supports breakthroughs and the commercialization of ideas.

Mr. Chair, I'm glad to say that budget 2018 was well received by those on whom it will have the greatest impact.

The Universities Canada president said:

“This budget makes important advances on the roadmap developed by the Naylor report.... It's a major investment in research that impacts Canadians' everyday lives, from shortening commute times to lifesaving medical treatments and environmental protection.”

The CICan president and CEO said, “Supporting applied research is one of the most efficient ways to boost Canadian innovation.”

This investment will go a long way toward unleashing the potential of colleges and institutes to drive growth in their communities and to train future innovators.

To that end, I want to emphasize that budget 2018 is about renewing Canada's research ecosystem to train the next generation of researchers. In recognition of this historic opportunity for real change, we want to ensure that Canada's next generation of researchers, including students, trainees, and early-career researchers, is larger, more diverse, and better supported than ever before. We task the granting councils with developing new plans to achieve greater equity and diversity in the sciences, and to support more early-career researchers.

We want to see our support advance the research ambitions of more women, indigenous peoples, minorities, persons with disabilities, and those at early stages in their careers. What's more, over the next year, the government will do further work to determine how to better support our next generation of researchers through scholarships and fellowships.

Mr. Chair, the government is playing the long game here.

This is our chance to harness the power of research to change the lives of Canadians for the better.

This is our chance to create a research ecosystem capable of sustaining brilliant minds and groundbreaking work.

We do all this because we want to be a global research leader and be at the forefront of discoveries that positively impact the lives of Canadians, the environment, our communities, and our economy. We are doing our part to train and support this generation of Canadian researchers so that they can help make that happen.

Thank you. I'd be pleased to answer any questions the committee members have.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much, Minister.

We're going to move right into questioning, with Ms. Ng for seven minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Minister, thank you so very much for coming here today to talk to us about the great work you are doing in leading the department.

I'm going to ask a question about the government's investment in fundamental research. You talked about our government making the largest investment in Canadian history in discovery research through the granting councils. To me, this is really great news for Canadians, including the people in my riding. In my riding, we have great institutions, such as York University and Seneca College.

I wonder whether you could talk to us about the college sector. You touched on that. Maybe you can talk about the investments you're making that will help in applied research, innovative research, at the colleges, the polytechnics, and the CEGEPs.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thanks, Mary, for the question.

I will begin by saying that this is the largest research investment in Canadian history. It is a $4-billion investment, and on top of that, there is $2.8 billion for government science infrastructure so our government scientists have the best labs possible to do their research.

It is a $1.7-billion investment in discovery research, $1.3 billion to the Canada Foundation for Innovation. For the first time, after 20 years, the CFI will have sustainable funding.

We are making the largest investment in college research in Canadian history as well. When you visit the colleges, as I know you have in your riding, you see that the work they're able to do, for example with business, is so important. A small or a medium-sized business comes in. They have a challenge. They're able to work on state-of-the-art infrastructure. They're able to work with students. They're able to work with faculty. They get an answer they need within a matter of months that will help grow their business and create jobs.

I'm really excited about the investments in both fundamental research and discovery research. The colleges play an enormously important role in our research ecosystem.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

Can you talk to us about the benefits to the students in the college system? The government is making investments to enable them to do the research, and in many colleges it will be applied research. Can you talk about its relevance to industries because of that very collaboration? What are we doing about supporting those students that would also enable the partnerships and the learning that will take place with industries?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Mary, thanks for the great question.

I, too, have a college in my community. It's Humber College, and I get there as often as I can. We want our students doing that applied research because that makes them very attractive to business, to industry, and to the community when they finish their degree. They're getting real-world experience. They're working on real-world problems. That makes them very attractive to industry. Research funding will give them the opportunity to work with faculty, to work on the best infrastructure, and to do their research.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

On the other side, for those organizations that collaborate so often and so well, can you talk about how the investments will actually help the industries? I think they have an opportunity here to collaborate more with the community, with the colleges, and with the post-secondary institutions in their respective areas. You used GE as an example, but maybe you could talk about other industries that have benefited from the investments that we're making for students.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thanks, Mary, for the question.

Today, we have the NSERC award winners here on Parliament Hill. I think that is a really good example. The Prime Minister met with them this morning to do a round table, and there was a college researcher who has worked with industry for 10 years. His research is around removing chemicals from cleaning products. It's really exciting to celebrate these researchers on Parliament Hill.

I will also highlight the investment we've made in the National Research Council. It is $540 million, the largest investment in the National Research Council in 15 years. This is about allowing the National Research Council to go back to doing some discovery research, but also, in terms of innovation, to help small and medium-sized businesses with the problems and challenges they face.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON

When I think about these wonderful researchers in the colleges and in the post-secondary institutions, I know that we are making a number of supports for women in the research field. Can you talk a bit about that?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thanks, Mary. I am a former researcher myself. I spent 25 years fighting for more diversity in the research system. Our government understands that equity and diversity go hand in hand with excellence. We want more women, indigenous people, people from minority backgrounds, and persons with disabilities in the research system.

That is why I brought back the university and college academic staff survey. It was cancelled by the previous government after being in existence since 1937. That gives us the data. Are women and men progressing through the ranks at the same rate? Are they making equal pay?

We've put in place new equity and diversity requirements for our Canada excellence research chairs and our Canada research chairs. For the excellence research chairs, it is $10 million over seven years. During the first rollout of the program under the previous government, not one woman was nominated. During the second rollout, one woman was nominated. Today, we have 27 Canada excellence research chairs, whom we are enormously proud of—one is winning an award today—but only one of them is a woman.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Mr. Jeneroux. You have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today.

I have only seven minutes, so if you could keep your answers short, it would be appreciated. If I interrupt you, it's not my intent to cut you off; it's just that we have only seven minutes here.

You mentioned in your comments that your investments would ensure that government scientists have the best labs possible. Minister, where are the scientists?

In your last appearance before this committee, you were asked about CANSIM table 358-0146, which shows a loss of 1,571 federal personnel engaged in science and technology when the government changed over. You told this committee it was part of retirements, with no further elaboration. Do you still stand by that explanation?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Thank you, Matt, for the question.

One of the challenges we face is that different departments look at the numbers in different ways. It has to do with the way researchers are categorized.

That's why I am having a full-day retreat with the deputy ministers of the science-based departments in June. One of the areas I've put on the table for discussion is human resources. If the average age of a civil servant is 38, what is the average age of a government scientist? How are we attracting new Ph.D.s and post-docs into government science? How are we supporting them through their careers? It's an incredibly important area for me, and I was proud that, with my colleague from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, one of the first things we did was hire 135 scientists.

I can't be clearer. We are committed—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Minister, I'm sorry to cut you off. I think you got your point across. The table says otherwise, though.

I have the chart here. I'd be happy to share it with you. I am especially concerned with another row in the same chart, about those engaged in research and development—direct scientists. It reads to me as if these are federal front-line researchers. In that category, there was a drop of another 2,602 personnel in research and development when the government changed over.

The 2018 numbers show that there are currently 3,507 fewer scientists employed by this government than there were in the previous government. It's difficult to believe that this is solely because of retirements. I'm happy you're having a retreat, but this is two and a half years in the making, and you now have 3,500 fewer scientists. Why?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

That is not the case. In fact, we have gone back to the science-based departments. We have been told that it has to do with the classification of researchers.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

After two and a half years, Minister, are the classifications still incorrect?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

It really should be.... I will give you an example. As a result of the previous administration and the restructuring of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, which was completed in September 2015, the scientific and professional personnel at the Canadian Nuclear Laboratories at Chalk River are no longer employed by AECL but by the Canadian National Energy Alliance. It's a private sector company. That shift is responsible for 2,873 full-time equivalents. That decision was taken by the previous government.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

It was enacted by your government, Minister. When you have 3,507—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

No. I have to take issue with that. That decision—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

You have 2,800 out of 3,507. There are still missing scientists.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

That decision was taken by the previous government—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Where are the missing scientists, Minister?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Matt, our government is committed to science, research, and evidence-based decision-making. We are committed to supporting our government scientists. We are committed to unmuzzling them. On day two of our government, we unmuzzled our scientists. We have backed that up with a new communications policy. Minister Brison and I wrote to all the ministers and the department heads to make sure they were aware of that policy change.

We know culture change takes time. We know there has been a new study done showing the improvements. The number of scientists thinking they were muzzled has gone from 90% down to 50%. There is still work to do.

Minister Brison, the president of PIPSC, and I have written a joint letter directly to our researchers to reinforce that we want them out speaking both to the media and to the public. That is a very large change from the previous government.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

The fact is that it's actually 63% who say they are unsatisfied. You're still quoting these numbers two and a half years into your mandate.

Anyway, Minister, we will change the channel a bit here. I want to talk about the chief science adviser position. Part of the chief science adviser's mandate is to “provide and coordinate expert advice to the Minister of Science and members of Cabinet...on key scientific issues”. That's directly from her mandate letter.

Your government has recently pushed through a new environmental assessment process and continues down the path of imposing a carbon tax, insisting that these are evidence-based decisions.

How many times has the chief science adviser been asked to weigh in on these or any other matters since her tenure began seven months ago?