Evidence of meeting #112 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Or even if the author were not compensated for that work.... Should indigenous authors be compensated for their work under copyright?
4:45 p.m.
Vice-Provost Indigenous Engagement, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I'm a researcher. We're never compensated for anything we write, so I think, from an art perspective—and you talked about Inuit art—that compensation is needed, but from a writing perspective, though, researchers typically, even when they publish a book, might get a few royalties, but in journal publications there's no compensation anyway.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
Thank you.
Ms. Callison, you seem to be situated within a very interesting intersection, because you work in the library sector, and so are part of the users of copyright, but you're also here representing an indigenous community who are creators of knowledge. How do you balance the needs of the Copyright Act, which I acknowledge does not really cover traditional knowledge? If there were aboriginal knowledge creators, should their copyright be respected by the Copyright Act?
4:45 p.m.
Indigenous Services Librarian, Ph.D. candidate, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I come from the perspective that I'd like to see the exceptions for use still left in the Copyright Act and left as is. Part of that is because, even as an author, I expect people to be able to use 10% of a published work. A published work is different from when knowledge is taken without prior consent and approval. If you are publishing something, you fully expect libraries and the general public to be able to have fair use, so that 10% isn't an issue.
It's when things are taken without permission and used in the wrong context that I have an issue. As an indigenous person, I wouldn't publish sacred knowledge. I would say that, if you want more information on that.... My late great-uncle Pat said to me, “If you want the rest of that story, come back next year, and when I've fulfilled those cultural protocols, I might get the end of that story.” I wouldn't publish that.
I think that's where we need to be able to do the acknowledgement, but then also to work with communities. What works for the Anishinaabe, the Cree, and the Métis is not going to work for the Tahltan. It's going to be different. It's going to be different for the Mohawk. That's where we need to have that kind of openness where we do the general statement and then work with people.
As a published author, if something is published in the public domain and the appropriate safeguards have been put in place, then I don't see an issue with that. Some things—and I think I said that in my brief—that are in the public domain currently that have not followed those protocols need to be retracted from that domain. That's where we work with individual communities, and where there are examples of art pieces or cultural pieces being taken from museums, put into storage, and used in the proper cultural way, instead of being out on display all the time.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
I'm not talking about sacred knowledge, although that is an important area, but about copyright. Let's say, for example, an indigenous person were to write an original story and copied it down, so it's fixated and copyrighted. It comes from their experience as an indigenous person, maybe drawing on some of the themes of their community experience. Is it your view that the individual's copyright should be respected, or if the community feels so, should it have rights over that individual's copyright?
4:50 p.m.
Indigenous Services Librarian, Ph.D. candidate, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I could answer that.
First of all, with any book published today in this era of reconciliation, or even in the last five to 10 years, the publishers should have ensured that they had permission from the community before they published it. If it has been taken and they have published it.... Even when I told a story to my adopted grandma, she would ask who told me that, and I would always have to cite the elder who had told me, so it could be cited properly and go back to the community.
That published material and fair use of it is the same as for any other published material, if they followed the same protocols. It's about following those protocols of obtaining informed consent from community members. And by informed I mean that they have to state.... If an elder speaks only in their language, then they need to have a translator who tells them what's going to happen when they publish that story, rather than taking that story. So appropriation of knowledge from any community, even if it's non-indigenous or indigenous, is obviously wrong; that's theft of cultural material. You need to have permission from that community, and hopefully those protocols are taken.
That's the reason we need to go back to the communities and enhance and give them the funding to be able to create those protocol arrangements.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
To summarize what you're saying is that even if an individual from that community writes a completely individual work, or an almost completely individual work, they still need the permission of the entire community to publish it.
4:50 p.m.
Indigenous Services Librarian, Ph.D. candidate, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I wouldn't say they need the permission of the entire community. Within our communities this is where there is that fallacy among non-indigenous people that all information is held communally. I know who owns a story and who has the right to pass on that story and I would go to that person and ask them if I could write it down. That's why you have to work with the communities for their protocols, otherwise you don't know who owns that story and who has the right to pass it down. That's where it's really important.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
May 10th, 2018 / 4:50 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
One of the things we're hearing from all communities of artists and creators in print, television, and film, through a series of books and journals, is this disempowerment of the model that's emerged, especially in the digital age, when it's been even faster. It's to the point now that we're all used to the musician who throws up their song on YouTube and hopes it becomes a big hit so they can sell albums later. It's part of how they've become successful at selling ads on YouTube, but it's like a loss leader.
We heard testimony the other day is that we have academics publishing quite extensively in journals—everything from medical to social sciences, empirical research, and so forth—just to get or maintain their tenure, or to get into other publications that would affect their tenure. It's really a disempowered relationship for the creator.
Does anybody have any suggestions as to what can be done about that in general? An immense amount of wealth is being created through this transition to the digital age, but it's not reaching the creators. In fact, on the previous panel I noted that some major publishers internationally have been the major benefactors. We've heard testimony that universities, colleges, and school boards are spending more and more money, but the publishers or the creators are getting less from royalties.
Does anybody have any suggestions on that, because I think maybe copyright isn't the place to solve this, but what do we do in the meantime?
4:55 p.m.
Vice-Provost Indigenous Engagement, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Sometimes I talk about moral ethics when it comes to research ethics. I think it crosses all boundaries. In academia, it's publish or perish. There are some people who are very prolific. They're out there, and they're gathering information. Those are the people many communities are afraid of, because it's all about the publishing and the speed at which that's done. When we work with a community, that takes time, right? I don't know if that's a Copyright Act issue, per se. I think it's more of a moral ethics issue. I think even the tri-council policy statement, with all the articles, can't deal with it as well. I think it's more of a moral issue.
4:55 p.m.
Indigenous Services Librarian, Ph.D. candidate, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
As a librarian, I am really all about open access to information. I think that's really important. There are many examples, when it comes to even sharing of traditional knowledge, where there are levels of access, whether it's family, or whatever. We want to get that knowledge out there. Oftentimes we talk a lot about protection, but for indigenous communities, we love sharing our knowledge. We want people to know the language. We want to share those things with people. I think with open access and publishing, it's really about sharing and getting the information out there.
In my only experience publishing, I never made a dime off it, nor did I want to. I wanted the knowledge to go out there to people about indigenous knowledge ownership. I think that's part of where some academics are coming from. In libraries, of course, we love it when there's open access, because we're able to provide more services to our community.
I think it really depends on the author. We've seen publishing houses that have gotten very wealthy, but we don't want to.... Obviously, they're our business partners. We want them to be able to stay in business. I think it is a complicated situation, but I really believe in open access to information. As a librarian, that's where we come from.
4:55 p.m.
Program and Arts Development Manager, Winnipeg Arts Council
I can be really brief. I would add to what's already been said. There are definitely rights holders or rights organizations in music and in visual and that kind of thing. Those are the people who administer these types of issues. You also, and I tried to say this off the top, should speak directly to the artists and to the people who are going to be affected, not necessarily always through the people who tend to speak on their behalf. Make a concerted effort to get to the grassroots—dare I use that word—the people who are actually being most directly affected by those questions.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Would that be a role for a much stronger, robust copyright board, for example? Decision-making, enforcement, and repercussions would maybe come into effect if you had misappropriated, stolen, or used work, and it had been found through the process. There would be enforcement and reparations. It would include maybe even a guarantee of inclusion of the original creators, even if they've signed over some rights or so forth. At least they would be consulted in the process. Is that, perhaps, a way of adding some layer of accountability for the worst of cases?
5 p.m.
Program and Arts Development Manager, Winnipeg Arts Council
I think that's a question for the artists themselves, as I said, because they are the ones who are going to be affected. To use your example of a musician who puts a song up on YouTube, musicians are making a lot less from a YouTube hit than what they would have received from radio play or something like that years ago. They're the ones who know the most about the ins and outs and all the differences between what a Spotify play is worth versus what a YouTube play is worth versus what a Power 97 play is worth. Ask them how they want to deal with that and how they want to address that.
5 p.m.
Public Art Project Manager, Winnipeg Arts Council
Since you asked if it was something outside of possibly copyright, I would suggest more funding for artists in the first place so that they don't have to be working a bunch of other jobs and can maybe be more informed and spend more time being aware of their rights and protecting their work. That would probably help things out in a very general way. I realize it's not getting at the heart of things, but in general, artists get really tied up and can't necessarily devote enough time and space to protecting their craft.
5 p.m.
Indigenous Services Librarian, Ph.D. candidate, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
I believe you have the Canadian Federation of Library Associations' statement on the creation of a strong copyright board to represent the multiplicity of views. I would add, when you're dealing with issues around indigenous knowledge, traditional knowledge or cultural expressions, that you ensure that you have someone on the board who is well versed and of indigenous ancestry.
There are a number of academics who have done this, who are lawyers or professors and this is their career. That's what their research area is. If you want those names, I can always help you with that, but you'll probably hear from them across Canada.
