Evidence of meeting #119 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was materials.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Special Advisor, Copyright, Canadian Council of Archives
I am one of those as well.
4:40 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:40 p.m.
Special Advisor, Copyright, Canadian Council of Archives
As long as we don't become relics.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Ms. Peets, I remember teaching the case of Robertson v. Thomson Corp more than once, and thinking that the good news is that Heather Robertson won, and the bad news is that Heather Robertson won. This is simply because, as you said and as I think we all predicted at the time, publishers would just react by ensuring that every time they signed a contract to a freelancer, they would get all the rights.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
That's even truer now because when Heather Robertson wrote the articles in 1995, we were talking about microfiche and putting articles on databases, before linking on the Internet and that kind of stuff were even in anyone's thoughts. The case was finally decided in 2006.
Help us find a solution. It's not even a copyright problem. It's a contract problem.
4:40 p.m.
President, Professional Writers Association of Canada
It is a contract problem.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
It's an imbalance of power contract problem because the publishers, newspapers, or whoever is buying he freelancer's work are always going to have a great deal more power. As a freelancer you have to sell your work, and now publishers are going to want to ensure that they don't get sued if something gets linked or if they want to use it in some other format.
Is there some model out there that can help us? I'm trying to get my head around it, and I'm not sure I can. I sympathize with the problem, but I'm not sure where I see the solution.
4:40 p.m.
President, Professional Writers Association of Canada
I can speak only to my personal experience on this. It was always the large publishers that wanted all the rights. I never had that problem with a small publisher, who you would think would want all the rights and who would maybe make that demand even more strongly than the larger publishers would. That, to me, was always an interesting paradox, because the people who, as you say, had all the power wanted even more power, and the struggling publishers, who were maybe putting out one or two magazines, paid me reprint rights. They paid me if they wanted to put something on their website, and that kind of thing.
Where the solution lies is that there is a balance that can be achieved. It's a question of will and whether the publishers really want to have that. If you can look at it as that without strong content they will not be able to sell their advertising, then they need to pay for that content.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
If your association finds any models or can think through a model, would you please submit it?
4:40 p.m.
President, Professional Writers Association of Canada
We will. We will take that on that task. Thank you.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
That would be great.
Ms. Marelli, thank you for coming.
There is an argument out there, in academic circles at the very least, that fair dealing provisions already apply to archives and other fair dealing uses with regard to TPMs.
Have you tried any of this in court, that fair dealing applies to the TPM provisions?
4:40 p.m.
Special Advisor, Copyright, Canadian Council of Archives
Do you mean that we should just go ahead and circumvent?
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
I'm not saying that, but do you know of any cases that have—
4:40 p.m.
Special Advisor, Copyright, Canadian Council of Archives
How many archivists do you know who are really daring and willing to break the law?
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
4:40 p.m.
Special Advisor, Copyright, Canadian Council of Archives
Yes, maybe.
We do risk management, for sure, and there are some instances when an archivist just quite honestly can't let the thing go.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
4:40 p.m.
Special Advisor, Copyright, Canadian Council of Archives
It's just ridiculous, and the chances of you actually being taken to court over this are very low. But we shouldn't be in that position. We really shouldn't be put in that position. We're allowed to do it under the provisions of the law. Why can't we just have an exception for circumventing TPMs? It's just not that complicated.
I remember the process in 2012 so well. Everyone was absolutely fed up with the discussion. People were ready to kill each other at the end, and finally the government just said, “No exceptions, period. That's it. That's all. We're not excepting anything. ” Everyone in the room knew and understood that it was crazy for archives, but it just went through. It just slipped into the cracks.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
You're done. Thank you very much.
On that note, I want to extend our gratitude to our two witnesses today.
4:45 p.m.
Special Advisor, Copyright, Canadian Council of Archives
Thank you for having us.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
It's been very informative, and we're looking forward to continuing our study.
We are going to suspend for a few minutes while we get everything in order and say goodbye to our witnesses, and then we'll come back.
Thank you.
