Evidence of meeting #120 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was songwriters.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alan Willaert  Vice-President from Canada (American Federation of Musicians), Canadian Federation of Musicians
Éric Lefebvre  Secretary-Treasurer, Guilde des musiciens et musiciennes du Québec
Margaret McGuffin  Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

Just to clarify, everybody's revenue has gone down.

5:10 p.m.

Vice-President from Canada (American Federation of Musicians), Canadian Federation of Musicians

Alan Willaert

I would say that the key driver is the sales, again. It's the fact that a whole ecosystem was built around recording and sales of the product, and that disappeared within a 10-year frame. A new model has taken over, which is the Internet.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

We still do the sales on recording. Something else has driven down the revenues.

5:10 p.m.

Vice-President from Canada (American Federation of Musicians), Canadian Federation of Musicians

Alan Willaert

The revenue for the musicians has gone down because they're not getting a piece of the pie any longer from their music.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I'm over my time, but if I get a chance, I'd like to come back to this.

5:10 p.m.

Vice-President from Canada (American Federation of Musicians), Canadian Federation of Musicians

Alan Willaert

As I said, the industry itself is flourishing, with $52 billion in the arts and culture industry in Canada. It's just that none of it is getting into the pockets of the musicians.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you.

We're going to move to Mr. Sheehan.

You have five minutes.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Going back to where I live, right on the border, Sault Ste. Marie, we have sometimes composites of musicians who get together. There could be Americans coming on our side joining a band making music, or Canadians going over to the United States, and mixtures therein. Then we also have the proverbial musician who goes to America—Nashville or wherever else—to make it big.

By living in that border situation, we've had different things enacted in CRTC, for instance, to promote Canadian content and Canadian musicians. I've always seen the real need for it because I have always been barraged with American content from back in the day when there was an analog signal that would come across the border, or their radio, their music coming forward. I know there's some stuff that's under heed to be reviewed with the CRTC.

I'm getting to the question, but I also want to talk about CBC. The CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, has played a significant role in promoting Canadian artists. They have contests every now and then. We have people from the Soo and all across Canada going into those contests. A lot of times the winner gets a crack at a Canadian label. They promote things that way.

I do see that whole barrage of American music coming our way, and we have Canadians who do quite well. Your membership still saying the same, I think, is a testament to the Canadian musician who continues to go at it.

One of the things I want to know is how we can promote particularly Canadian music. I know we're looking at the copyright. We've talked about some of the revenue streams, the concerts. Just in the Soo we're seeing larger and larger performers who I would never imagine would play there, like Elton John. I know he's American, but yes, he went to the Soo. I think that goes to your remarks that more performers are going out there.

What other devices are there as well? We know we've talked about Spotify. We've talked about the other musical devices that are out there. How is it that a Canadian musician can be promoted and make money right now with the current copyright system? Then, of course, you have made the comments on some of the changes.

One of the things we were talking about extensively over the last long time was fair dealings and how music is being used in our educational sector, so that's in my mind too. We know music is being played in a school for related events and whatnot, so some comments on fair dealing use as well....

I know it's a very broad, sweeping question, but those are some of my concerns. This is our first meeting, and this is some of the stuff I'm trying to arrive at.

5:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

I think there is some interesting information on this in the report that was released earlier this week and the announcement about the review of the broadcasting and telecommunication acts. There was put forward the need for a discussion about Canadian content and French language content, and the requirements that really created a star system in this country that are now only put in place on traditional broadcasters. The new digital services don't have those responsibilities and they also don't have the responsibility to actually invest and put money into funds that allow musicians to access funds.

We have FACTOR and Musicaction in this country. Their revenues from private radio are declining. That's going to impact those musicians because they are not going to be able to get as much funding if we don't look for new ways to provide funding to those organizations.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

That's very interesting. Are there any other comments on that one?

What about the fair dealings, though, in the school? There was quite a large amount of testimony regarding that from the authors. Is there any concern about musicians, not only in the school but in educational training outfits? You will have someone come in. It could be a private business. They have their presentation, and a lot of times they use music just to back it up. Music is very powerful in making presentations.

Are there any comments on that with fair dealing?

5:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

I have to disclose that I worked for Access Copyright for 10 years as a consultant and as an employee.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Go ahead, though, please.

5:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

I am not working for them now.

However, as a parent, every week I pay to send my kids to OFSAA for field hockey, to the Science Centre, to have additional things that they need in school. I would expect that when a school is looking at paying their teachers, and paying their hydro, paying for repairs to the school, they would also think about compensating creators and the businesses that support those creators for good materials. There are great teachers, but the consistency of learning is so much better when you have great Canadian-made books going into our schools and learning resources, so that my kids are not just reading American resources.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

And music, too, by extension.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

Now, for the final, final question, we are going to go to Mr. Longfield.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

I'm going to share part of my question with Mr. Jowhari, if that's possible.

I'm looking at “The Value Gap” report that you've been referencing. According to IFPI, which is another organization that we need to explore to see how Canada relates with IFPI....

5:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

Music Canada is.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

It wasn't listed on their website, but the their global music report says that the value gap is the biggest threat to the future sustainability of the music industry. Then they qualify that, and say, “Inconsistent applications of online liability laws have emboldened certain [services] to claim that they are not liable for the music they make available to the public.”

We've had previous testimony about enforcement being one of the big issues and whether the act is strong enough in terms of enforcement.

Is that a fair interpretation?

5:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

That is one consideration.

Then, to Mr. Baylis's point—I've been reading additionally while I've been here—if we're not able to have the services come to the table and negotiate, we need to look at the ISPs that are profiting over these services and to actually licence them.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

Thank you.

The commercial radio station profits from 1995 were $3.6 million according to this report. In 2016, they were $437.5 million. There is value in the value chain. It just isn't getting down. That has been repeated a few times today.

Miranda Mulholland is quoted in this report as saying that she played on almost every episode of the CBC's Republic of Doyle, and it's syndicated worldwide. She received a one-time union rate of about $280, while the composer collects residuals every time the show airs in 44 countries around the world.

Is there a global standard that we need to look at, or is there a global standard that we're not in sync with?

5:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

There are some countries that are providing for that payment to the musicians. Within Canada, we have a double standard. Composers get paid through SOCAN on an ongoing basis, yet the musicians who play the works of those composers don't get paid on an ongoing basis.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

The quote says “44 countries around the world”. You gave France and Australia as being among them, and we're an outlier.

5:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

There's a difference between being a composer versus a musician in Canada. Plus, in those other territories—

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

I understand.

She has to play live in order to get compensated. Once it's recorded and it's being used, she has no compensation.

5:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Canadian Music Publishers Association

Margaret McGuffin

And not everyone can tour. At certain points in your career, you can't be touring if you have a family and you need to be turning to the next part of your life. You need to recreate yourself, and touring may not be the thing you can do.