Evidence of meeting #123 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was levy.
A video is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Very well. We'll continue the conversation another time.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
I need to make sure that everybody gets their questions in.
We'll move to Mr. Jeneroux.
You have five minutes.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Great. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, everybody, for being here today. It's a pleasure to hear your testimony and also to have you here in front of us.
I do want to touch on the FairPlay coalition. We've had a number of individuals in front of us who've made their opinion known as part of the coalition, or who have strong opinions with regard to the coalition's message.
To perhaps all four witnesses, I'm curious about your thoughts on their proposal to create an industry-led board that would advise CRTC to block access to websites they've deemed as perpetuating piracy.
Mr. Baptiste.
4:35 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
Sure, this remains an issue. It is maybe not as central as it used to be a few years ago before streaming services opened shop in Canada. There was a vacuum in this country for a while, and we developed, as a result, an unhealthy appetite for those websites that supply unlicensed music. Nevertheless, even with reasonable subscriptions, it's still tempting for some people, obviously, to go to free, to no cost.
Any time a site or a service says that it's not technically possible, it has been demonstrated many times that for other reasons—protection of children, etc.—suddenly it becomes possible. If there is one element and one area of business where owners have total control, it is the Internet and websites. They know exactly what every person is doing on their sites. If I do this, they know. They know; I've seen it.
It would remain something important to create a healthy ecosystem even for those significant businesses like Spotify, Apple Music, or the new Google YouTube service that will launch soon in Canada. It's about a level playing field. It's really hard to compete with free. It's really hard to compete with organizations, companies, that provide services that are based on theft and piracy, so we would support this.
4:35 p.m.
Vice-President of Public Affairs and Executive Director, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo
We are part of the fair play coalition because we think we have to put in place everything we can to face every aspect of the problem we have in the music industry.
As Lisa said earlier, it's all the actions put together that will make a difference, so we really think we should do something about piracy, but while doing it we don't mean not doing something else. We have to do all those things to make a difference.
That's why we support and we signed that initiative.
4:40 p.m.
Chair, Canadian Private Copying Collective
CPCC was not involved in this coalition, so I will leave it to the people who are a part of that coalition.
4:40 p.m.
President, Re:Sound Music Licensing Company
I wouldn't really have anything to add that Solange and Eric haven't already raised. I think they have answered it well.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
To both Eric and Solange, the proposal, in my opinion, would not involve the courts in the blocking process until after a website has already been blocked, in which case accused site owners would be filing an appeal. It seems to be that then there is a relative lack of that judicial oversight. You're obviously comfortable with that lack of oversight?
4:40 p.m.
Vice-President of Public Affairs and Executive Director, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo
It's a proposal on the table. I guess it has to be discussed. We think that to start a discussion on that....
I guess we won't find...and it's the same with private copying. There is a big issue, and it's important that we do something and we start to do something about it.
As we see it, we've put something on the table and now the CRTC has asked for comments. We're not stuck to this proposal, but at the same time we think it is a good foundation to start a discussion on that. It could be modified if somebody has a better idea, not just to oppose it, but to have another idea, another better idea, so we will be open to discussing it, but at the same time we were 25 groups around the table to discuss it, and that's the best we have ended up with.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you very much for your testimony thus far.
In the last session I had asked a question that we've been posing to some of our witnesses that, when we're doing these studies, we want to know not just how it may affect large urban centres but how this may affect, in your view, rural. Canada is rural, and there are performers and a cultural economy in all those areas.
I'm from northern Ontario. It could be eastern Canada, Quebec, the Prairies, or B.C., but how would these changes you're suggesting improve those particular areas of Canada as well?
Does anyone want to take a stab at that?
Eric.
4:40 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
One measure that would benefit every company and individual in the Canadian music ecosystem is an extension of term. It doesn't matter whether you live in Toronto or in rural Ontario, Quebec, or B.C., each of the 150,000 members of SOCAN, publishers and creators, would benefit from that.
I also believe that making private copying tech neutral—that is, priming the pump that would enable once again those revenues to flow through to all stakeholders in the music ecosystem—would benefit those creators in genres that don't benefit that much from the boom in streaming services. The point has been made, I believe by Solange, that streaming services benefit a narrow field of global superstars. Many people in Quebec don't benefit from that. Country music stars in Canada don't really shine on streaming services. That is something I say every time.
To name those examples only, by having money flowing to the private copying regime and looking at what people copy on their devices, I'm sure there would be more country music, for example, than what is consumed in sales. Spotify, those companies and creators, would benefit from added revenues, to name a few examples.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
We just finished a study on broadband, and one of the challenges with streaming in rural Canada is that sometimes the streaming isn't really necessary in all parts of Canada. There's a little inequity there.
4:40 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
That's perfect. If you don't stream that much in rural Canada, and you enjoy music, you're probably likely to copy more music, to cache more music on your devices. If you want to stick to the stereotypes, and you enjoy your country music, then more country music will be stored locally on that iPhone in rural Canada, and therefore will benefit more from private copying. It's one of those corrective measures that would help.
The point has been made as well that, among the things we are suggesting to Parliament, there is no silver bullet. There's not one thing that would change the landscape overnight. It's a series of corrective measures put together that would significantly improve the situation for all Canadian creators, publishers, record companies, and performers.
We're all in this together. Every segment of this industry needs a little bit of help to adjust in this transition from a physical product, an analog-based economy, to a digital on-demand streaming economy.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
We heard a lot of testimony before about the Beijing treaty. I want to know your opinions on the Beijing treaty. It came in around 2012, and I think it was last studied around 2012 as well.
Do you have any comments about the Beijing treaty?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
What about exceptions for the Beijing treaty?
I believe it's one of the most recent WIPO, World Intellectual Property Organization, treaties that addresses people with visual or hearing problems. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that we need to make sure that every Canadian has access to cultural goods and entertainment content irrespective of his or her circumstances. We believe in exceptions when they are based on justifiable differences. When they are based on different situations, they are perfectly admissible.
What we have issues with is the kind of the laundry list of exceptions that has been introduced year after year. Regrettably, there were a bit too many in 2012. The Canadian Copyright Act makes it the world champion of exceptions. To the best of my knowledge, none of us here has any issue with the Beijing treaty itself.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
I believe, just to clarify the treaty in regards to access to copyright for the disabled, that it is the Marrakesh treaty. They are very distinct. The Beijing treaty is about another group.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada
I'm not a lawyer; I qualified my answer.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Dane Lloyd Conservative Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB
That's fine; I'm not a lawyer either.
This question is for you, Mr. Baptiste, and also you, Mr. MacKay.
Mr. MacKay, you mentioned in your testimony that there are a number of unnecessary and outdated subsidies. You mentioned the radio subsidy and certain other things.
I was hoping that you could also comment on the government subsidies that are passed along to creators. Do you believe there is any room for reforming those subsidies? Are there some subsidies that aren't being used in the way they were intended, or they aren't being used effectively? Are there some subsides that have been found to be very effective in helping the industry?
4:45 p.m.
President, Re:Sound Music Licensing Company
I can only really comment on the ones that I was dealing with, and those are subsidies that are preventing rights holders from getting paid for the commercial use of their music. It's a subsidy for the industry at the expense of the creator. They're ones in which commercial use is being made of the music and the sound recordings, but it's not being compensated.
4:45 p.m.
Vice-President of Public Affairs and Executive Director, Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque, du spectacle et de la vidéo
On that issue I can help you.
There's a Canada Music Fund. We can access it. The author can access it. All of the music industry can access that fund. That fund was put into place in 2002, and despite how bad it has been in the music industry for the last 15 to 20 years, the amount of money in the fund has remained the same since 2002. Just to let you know. It's less than $30 million for all the artists, all authors, and all labels in Canada, coast to coast to coast. It's not....