Industry Committee on Nov. 7th, 2018

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you. I understand.

I am part of the millennial generation, and when I use Facebook or Google or any of these platforms, there are always these long terms of agreement. There are various instances where they ask me for my consent when they want to know where my location is. I have the option to consent to that or not.

Why is Statistics Canada in this pilot project not giving Canadians the same option to consent?

[Anil Arora]

We know that people who consent look different from those who don't consent. When you get local areas for which you need good-quality data, or if you want to now know about a target population—how seniors are impacted or how single parents are impacted by certain things—the cross product, if you like, of that low level of geography and a particular targeted subpopulation requires a higher level of quality of data.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Participation you're saying.

[Anil Arora]

It's no different from the census long-form debate this country had. As I said, we know the profile of those who consent is different from the ones who don't consent. Our ability to essentially account for those who don't consent doesn't allow itself to be substituted or weighted up, if you like, to those who do, because those who consent don't look like the ones who don't.

We know the youth don't participate. We know in many cases single parents are too busy and they can't participate. So we miss data in many cases for the very audiences that policy-makers are trying to get a better handle on.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

With that, though, you believe Canadians should not be allowed to refuse consent for Statistics Canada information.

[Anil Arora]

Look, as I said before, we understand the concerns of Canadians. We get it. We deal with sensitive data all the time.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

But if a Canadian writes to you and says they explicitly do not want Statistics Canada to have this information, would you respect their request?

[Anil Arora]

We have, give or take, 400 programs in Statistics Canada. Many of them are mandatory and many of them are voluntary. The difference simply is, as I explained earlier, what the level of precision is, what the level of accuracy is, what the level of geography is to which this information is needed.

In some cases it's good enough to have it at a Canada level or a provincial level. In some cases, for information that really matters, for issues that are important to Canadians, we have to have high-quality data.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Some jurisdictions in the U.K., though, have introduced nudge models where you are automatically considered to have consented unless you explicitly say that you do not consent.

Why has that not been considered as a model for Statistics Canada?

[Anil Arora]

First of all, what Statistics Canada is doing is consistent with what most modern statistical agencies in the world do. They have carve-outs from privacy acts, PIPEDA, etc., for statistical purposes, and it's only for statistical purposes that we can in fact go and get at representative data, even in some cases without consent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Mr. Longfield.

You have five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Arora. This is a great conversation.

I used to use the CANSIM reports when I was in business. The Canadian paper industry was going through transition. I reported to a board of directors in Europe that asked where the emerging markets were that would substitute for the business we were doing in the paper industry. We looked at wind turbines and steel mills. We got some of those customized reports, and paid what it cost for those. In terms of our business it was very important to have good data.

Europe seemed to always be one step ahead of us on data, and I had to report to Europe. As a Canadian business director, it made it difficult for me.

Now I look at the labour force surveys. I wait for the Friday that they come out because in my riding we have 3.6% unemployment. There's a lot of stress on business to find workers. We need data for the business community in my riding.

The not-for-profits that are working on poverty elimination are looking for data. They were more concerned than I was when the long-form census was cancelled.

When we went from the long-form census being mandatory to voluntary, what was the impact on data? The people in the not-for-profit sector said, “Now we're drifting. We don't know where we're at.”

Could you let us know what happened there?

[Anil Arora]

Sure. I've done a few censuses in my life.

When we went back and looked at the results in 2006, 2016, and the 2011 national household survey results, we can see as I was saying earlier, the impact of people who respond and who don't. We know for approximately 1,126 communities out of 5,000 communities, the data for that level of detail was just not good enough for the kinds of needs that Canadians have.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Right. Communities, because of their size, became invisible, and some of our most vulnerable communities didn't get serviced. Is that what you were saying?

[Anil Arora]

In many cases we had to take it up to the next level of geography because we weren't confident with the level of information at that smaller level. As I said, we do know that the prevailing traits, if you like, of the population start to get amplified when you don't have enough detail.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Right. I'm thinking that in terms of expenditures, when you're in northern or remote communities, you're going to have a different mix of expenditures that would cause us to look at different types of social programs in order to support them. Really, that's what we're trying to get to.

[Anil Arora]

Clearly somebody living in Whitehorse or Resolute Bay has a very different cost and profile for their clothing, food and shelter than somebody living in downtown Toronto or Vancouver.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I was working on another project with our downtown. Guelph is on the list of designated places to grow. We're looking at getting 8,000 people into the downtown. We're looking at creating 4,000 jobs in the downtown.

The downtown businesses in Guelph are saying they wish they knew the neighbourhoods around the downtown. Are they professional people? Are they people who could shop in the downtown? What kind of shops would we want to attract into the downtown?

Are those standard reports, or is that where you're trying to head with this pilot project, to be able to give, let's say, business improvement areas information on the neighbourhoods around them so that we can have the right types of retail opportunities?

[Anil Arora]

I think you're pointing out exactly the kinds of questions that are being asked of us by Canadians, associations, businesses, social support groups and so on. They're saying, “Just giving me the data for Vancouver isn't good enough. What do I do with that? I know that Surrey looks very different from Richmond and downtown Vancouver. Those data don't help me expand my markets or even understand whether people will actually be able to consume the product if I do put something in place."

You see the changes in demographics, immigration and so on. Knowing the tastes and habits of people in that area, how they are changing over time, and how different subgroups in that area consume products and services differently than others is what this project is designed to do—

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Again, there is a wall. We can't know what address has what.... When I was in business, I would have loved to know which paper mill was no longer going to be buying my product.

[Anil Arora]

Not from Statistics Canada you won't.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I couldn't get to the paper mill. I couldn't get to the level of detail. I could only get aggregated detail. In terms of policy, that's what we're looking for.

[Anil Arora]

Yes. Again, when I say we take the privacy of Canadians very seriously, it's not just a “trust me”. There are actually processes and procedures in place.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move back to Mr. Albas, for five minutes.