Industry Committee on Nov. 7th, 2018

[Anil Arora]

First, we've been very clear both in writing and verbally with the CBA that this is a pilot project. It remains a pilot project in its design phase.

In terms of your question about our work with TransUnion, we worked with them over the course of a year. We worked in collaboration with them to explain exactly why we needed that data and how we needed that data. Something they have been very clear about with their clients as well—

[Dan Albas]

No, sir, I don't think that's the case.

[Anil Arora]

—is that this is data. You can look at an individual—

[Dan Albas]

I'd like just to move on here.

The problem I have here is that the pilot project you're talking about with the banks is not possible without having the credit bureau information. The two are intrinsically linked.

Let's say you pick a particular neighbourhood randomized in Canada. You pick a household and you then use the credit bureau data to go to all of the banks, and I imagine this would also be for institutions such as credit card companies. Then you could say, “We've identified this person's social insurance number. We know they have an account with you. We would like you to supply us with all of that information.”

We're not talking about just bank accounts, sir. We're talking about credit card-specific information. Is that correct?

[Anil Arora]

Let me provide some clarification.

First of all, this pilot project with the financial institutions is about expenditure data, individual financial transactions that we're getting, as I said, from a one in 40 sample.

The transactions we get from TransUnion, for example, are looking at the credit. We're using that data to look at housing statistics and the degree to which people are over-leveraged.

That is a complete—

[Dan Albas]

How are you going to be able to get credit card information then?

For example, some people will have a chequing account at a bank but then they'll use a credit card for much of their activity. You need to have access to both sets of information to do exactly what you're talking about.

How do you do that then, if you're not using the credit bureau information? The bank that you ask that information for will not know about that credit card.

[Anil Arora]

We're not interested in matching those two, first of all.

This is about household expenditure patterns. This project is about looking at what a typical household spends, and what they spend that money on.

The reason that's important, sir, is that we use that expenditure pattern, by a demographic profile, and their pattern then fits as the weight for our CPI project. It tells you that, in this particular situation, a typical household spends so much on these types of services.

Every month we go out and get prices to feed into our consumer price index and then we benchmark and weight up that one commodity against how much a typical household spends on clothing, food, mortgage or digital services. That's what this project is about.

[Dan Albas]

Again, if you were only able to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you.

The time is up. You'll have time. We'll come back to you.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

To start, I want to tell you that the work you do is extremely important for the development of effective public policies that reflect the Canadian and Quebec reality. We strongly believe that accurate data allows us to make the best possible decisions. Otherwise, we're sort of in the dark, and it's extremely fuzzy. That's why, at the time, we so strongly defended the long-form census, a tool that we feel is absolutely essential.

Having said that, you have sparked a whole shock wave. Many people are concerned that a public institution may have direct access to their personal information through a bank or credit card company. It makes people very nervous.

I first want to talk about citizen consultation and transparency. In your presentation, you said that you held information sessions and spoke to people. I don't know who you spoke to, but I don't think it was with a lot of people, because the media, journalists and people in our ridings are worried. They learned about this pilot project in the newspapers and are a little shocked.

What consultation process did you follow to inform people of the upcoming launch of this pilot project?

[Anil Arora]

First, I understand the concerns of Canadians about this pilot project. As I said earlier, this project hasn't yet begun; it is still at the design stage. We are still working with stakeholders to determine how best to communicate with their clients. Again, the intention is to be transparent. We want to tell Canadians that this is what it takes to have high quality data. We have done this several times before in other cases, and that is exactly what we'll do for this pilot project.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

The Privacy Commissioner has already mentioned that he will launch an investigation into your pilot project.

If the commissioner ever concludes that this doesn't meet the standards for protecting the privacy of citizens, what will you do?

[Anil Arora]

We'll see. Let's let Mr. Therrien do his job first.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Are you willing to commit to following his recommendations?

[Anil Arora]

Of course. We'll take his recommendations into account.

I also asked Mr. Therrien to give us other recommendations, if he has any. We worked with him during the design period of this pilot project and took his recommendations into account. He has received complaints, and he will do his job. If he still has recommendations to make, we will, of course, take them into account in our pilot project.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

You said that, since the communication methods aren't the same anymore, there are no longer many fixed telephones in the home and that people communicate more on social media. So they are more difficult to reach.

You used the expression that traditional surveys are unsustainable.

You aren't the only organization facing this challenge, but it seems that the solution you've found is quite intrusive as to people's lives and their personal and banking information. No polling firm would dare do anything like that. Personally, I'm not convinced you've found “the” solution.

In recent years, has Statistics Canada been giving mandates to subcontractors or third parties to collect information, on which Statistics Canada relies to feed its database and establish its statistics? Was the pilot project designed in-house or did you outsource some activities?

[Anil Arora]

We designed it ourselves, and the data remains in our buildings and systems. Of course, everyone buys software, and we do too, but we never pass on the data we collect from citizens to anyone.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Do you use the services of a third party to collect data on your behalf?

[Anil Arora]

No.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Do you use Shared Services Canada?

[Anil Arora]

Shared Services Canada provides services to everyone. We have given them the mandate to maintain our systems, but we control our data and how employees access it.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Do you think the level of security and privacy protection at Shared Services Canada equal that of Statistics Canada?

[Anil Arora]

As I said, we control our servers and our data. They don't have access to our data.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Mr. Boulerice, you have 40 seconds left.