Evidence of meeting #51 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was diversity.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Excellent.
It is one of those things that can be measured.
Mr. Longfield is on the list, then. Good. I will cede the floor after making my point.
At the end of the day, I think it's important to have measurement systems in place by Parliament that at least give some indication, so the minister can actually measure those things. Otherwise, we've moved to a model of comply or explain, and it has no conditions attached to it and very little oversight.
Thank you very much.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's nice to have the floor again.
About 45 minutes before the end of the last meeting, I made a comment that we need to have things around diversity put into regulations, not into legislation. Legislation nails you down to certain definitions and is very difficult to change once it's in place. We've seen for the last half hour of this meeting, and the last 45 minutes of the previous meeting, that the other side can go back and forth about the definitions around diversity, because diversity itself is hard to define. In fact, diversity, by definition, could go on forever in terms of how you could try to define it.
Our basic premise is that diversity should be under a comply or explain model and that it should be defined within the terms of regulations. Mr. Schaan indicated how that actually happens. Once you do have legislation in place, you can determine regulations around legislation.
Right now, we are trying to get legislation to the floor of the House so that we can vote on it. I'd like to see us move towards a vote on whether we move forward with the definition of diversity being in regulations or whether we have diversity determined by the amendments we have on the floor.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Before I comment directly on this.... Last time I did bring up something from the House that was not something I agreed with. I just wanted to say, congratulations to the members of this committee who voted on a couple of bills last night. I thought that was very courageous, and it was very good to see.
Now I will leave that alone.
It may be in the actual print of the bill, although I couldn't find it while I was sitting here. Look, there is a similar motion next from us. Hopefully we can deal with this all at once. As we're going through the diversity question here, and basically comply or explain.... We were having a little chat just before this. When this information is being brought forward in the actual implementation of it.... Let's say you're business A and it is required of you to either hit a certain percentage or explain why you haven't. Is it delineated what the diversity is on that board in terms of the reason why we would consider that person to fit within the definition of diversity, or is it just 30% or 45% of the people on the board?
Do you know that, Madam Clerk?
I am not filibustering right now, for the record.
9:15 a.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
When this bill moves into action and there is comply or explain—when the actual reporting takes place—will it delineate how the term “diversity” is interpreted by each business? If, let's say, 40% of the persons on a certain board are women, do they have to comply and say why they fit within the ideals of diversity, or will they just say the number of people?
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
I'm going to defer to Mr. Schaan for that one. I have my own thoughts on it.
Mr. Schaan, go ahead.
9:20 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
The way comply or explain works under the securities commissions currently is that the management circular that's provided to shareholders on an annual basis asks for the gender makeup. In the Ontario Securities Commission's case, it actually asks about the percentage of women in senior management and on the board, and then it asks for a summary of the policy in place to encourage gender diversity on the board. If they don't have a policy to encourage gender diversity on the board and in senior management, they are asked to explain to their shareholders why no such policy exists. This would mimic that but include a diversity policy.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
This would mimic that but include a diversity policy.
9:20 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
That's right.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Go one step further for me then. What happens with this diversity policy? That's what I'm trying to get at.
9:20 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
If there's a policy of diversity beyond gender, the corporation would similarly summarize that for their shareholders and explain what efforts they are taking to improve diversity beyond gender within their senior management and on their board. If they don't have a policy, they would explain why not.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
To go back to where they're complying or explaining, in their report, are they going to say what each person's background is and how each fits under the term “diversity”?
9:20 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
The policy is a general policy. It's not a policy on each individual candidate. The candidate proposals from the board are a separate issue that would be put before members in terms of what information they would provide, but the policy is a diversity policy beyond gender. It would be a generalized policy about how they are encouraging increased diversity within the senior management or on their board.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Right, but one of the things brought up earlier by my colleague Mr. Masse was with regard to the minister having the appropriate information to make decisions. If that information is not being brought forward through this bill, then I'd like to know that. I'm not sure I have a position one way or another yet.
Second to that, if we're not telling them what qualifies specifically as diverse, then the measurement doesn't really matter anyway, and we all know how much I like measurements.
Am I correct in these assertions or not?
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
This legislation allows for the regulations to set out what prescribed information related to diversity they need to provide to their shareholders and to summarize their diversity policy for their members and to provide that information to the director of Corporations Canada for the purposes of analysis.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
So as they provide that information, it will determine the reason that each person on that board is considered to be....
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
It will set out the....
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
I'm trying to figure out what information we get. Do we get a piece of paper that says 40% of the members of our board or do we get a piece of information that says 8% are this, 10% are that, and 25% are other.
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
The legislation allows for the capacity to set out what information we ask corporations to provide, and at a minimum, a diversity policy if they have one.
9:25 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
But it allows for the regulations to determine what specific asks we make.