Evidence of meeting #54 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was security.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ron Parker  President, Shared Services Canada
Raj Thuppal  Assistant Deputy Minister, Cyber and IT Security, Shared Services Canada
Graham Barr  Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy, Shared Services Canada
Wayne Smith  Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
Ivan Fellegi  Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

10:25 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

One factor would be regional representation. You mentioned sectoral representation too.

You're concerned that 10 is going to be very tight, then, to get that expertise in. You're saying we need 24 or 25.

10:25 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

There is a next set of questions on issues I would like to understand.

With my reading—and I'm not a lawyer—it was my belief that although a previous government sabotaged the long-form census, if Statistics Canada were given sufficient power of independence, that could not happen. However, you have both raised this as an issue.

I would like to understand what should be done. If I understand you correctly, Statistics Canada does not have what I thought was sufficient freedom to make sure the long-form census takes place.

If that is the case, what should be done?

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Wayne Smith

As I was enumerating a minute ago, in order to avoid the confusion that the courts have introduced in ruling that the long-form census can be voluntary, you need to define that the questions to be be asked on a 100% basis or on a sample basis are all part of the census. That would take it out of the hands of the courts.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Do you want to put actual questions into the law?

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Wayne Smith

No, no, no, I simply want the law to define that the census of population is all of those questions that are approved, by whatever the approval process is—which at the moment is by cabinet—and that the questions to be asked of the Canadian population on a sample, or on a 100% basis, constitute the census of population. That avoids a problem with the courts, which has happened. The courts decide that the long form, because it's on a sample basis, is not a census, so therefore it doesn't have to be mandatory.

The first thing is to change that. The second thing depends on what level of political engagement you think there should be in determining the questions.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

If I understand, one is to ensure right now that that setting goes to cabinet, and your second one is to say it shouldn't even go to cabinet, but to the statisticians.

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Wayne Smith

I'm saying that's a choice.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Okay.

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Wayne Smith

At the moment, if Statistics Canada comes forward with a census of the magnitude of the 2016 census, the current act says that the government can decide that, no, we're only going to ask five questions, and say, “Sorry, the rest of it's not necessary”.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

And this amendment does not correct that?

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Wayne Smith

This amendment does not correct that.

The scope of the census is entirely in the hands, not of the chief statistician but of the government under this legislation.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Understood.

Is that your understanding too, Mr. Fellegi?

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Ivan Fellegi

Yes.

My concern is particularly with the government's ability, or the minister's ability subject to Governor in Council approval, to overrule the chief statistician on a methodological issue on how to take a survey with a census.

There is no national interest that should allow this to happen. The current drafting says that in the case of overriding national interest, the minister can do this, that, or the other, including overruling the chief statistician on a methodological issue.

It's quite appropriate, necessary, and fundamental for the minister to have authority over management and budgetary issues, but not at all over—

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

So you would like to see wording added, management issues aside, to address the concern that statistical methodology should remain with the chief statistician.

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Ivan Fellegi

It's there now, but it can be over-ruled by the minister....

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

And you'd like that part taken out—

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Ivan Fellegi

I'd like that to be removed, the over-ruling—

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

You'd like that to say the government cannot over-rule—

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Ivan Fellegi

—on methodological issues.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Would you agree with that, Mr. Smith?

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Wayne Smith

I certainly agree with that, but whether it's—

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

It might seem—

10:30 a.m.

Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual

Wayne Smith

My understanding of this issue is that it's tied into the whole Westminster system and is not quite so easy to carve out, but ideally that should be the case, yes.