Evidence of meeting #83 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was casl.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steven Harroun  Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Neil Barratt  Director, Electronic Commerce Enforcement, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Kelly-Anne Smith  Senior Legal Counsel, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Francis Lord  Committee Researcher

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you.

Well, you certainly don't look like the storm troopers described by some of the testimony we received.

11:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I don't know if you left your masks behind, or if your Death Star is in shambles. It depends upon what version, I think, of—

11:25 a.m.

Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Steven Harroun

I'll take that as a compliment.

11:25 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Yes.

I apologize for being a little bit late, but I caught the end of it, and that's where I want to go. How much has it cost to monitor and do your enforcement operations under this legislation since passed? Do you have any idea what your annual budget might be for this? If you don't have it, maybe you can get back to us, but can you give us any idea of the operational cost necessary to ensure compliance with the legislation?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Steven Harroun

Do you mean for the entire compliance and enforcement sector at the CRTC?

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

No, I mean just for CASL and that area. I think there was an original extra budget provided, and I don't know whether there's a continual amount.

If you don't have that now—

11:25 a.m.

Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Steven Harroun

It's an ongoing amount, for sure. I'd have to look exactly at my CASL funds. The challenge is that I'm also responsible for the national “do not call” list and for the voter contact registry. I can give you $4 million off the top of my head, but that's for my entire program rather than for CASL. CASL is probably around $2.2 million, give or take, at the CRTC level. But we can provide that information, absolutely.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

That would be nice.

Do you think you're on a cost-recovery basis right now, or is it probably more just a compliance and...? You're not really on a cost-recovery basis. Your fines or your penalties are not subscribed based on that.

11:25 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Kelly-Anne Smith

No. Any administrative monetary penalty that we issue and collect and any specified quantum that we would collect as part of an undertaking goes to the Receiver General for Canada. It does not come back to the CRTC. We're not on any kind of cost recovery.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

It's interesting, because when I first got here, I worked on and was successful in getting the elimination of tax deductibility for fines and penalties. I'm redoing some of that work, however, because some loopholes have popped up over the last decade that are actually allowing for tax deductibility of some of the compliance fines. That's another story in itself. The point is that it's costing money to do this.

There was a case that I thought was interesting. One of our telecoms came here—I can't remember which one it was—and said that they had been fined, I think, but had received no warning. I know there is supposed to be a notification process and that usually there are provisions for undertakings in respect of rectification of a situation and so forth. It's not that it just happens.

Do you have any comments on that? Maybe you can you walk us through what happens if I do send spam. Are there several interventions before an actual fine takes place?

I was surprised by one, though, who suggested that there hadn't been much communication.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Electronic Commerce Enforcement, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Neil Barratt

As we said earlier, we're not always going to send a company a warning letter to tell them that we see complaints about their situation, but in the course of an investigation we're going to be collecting records from any company we're looking at, asking them for compliance details and what their record of consent is; we look at all their record-keeping. For any company, that's an opportunity—it's a bit of a red flag—to come to talk to us, ask what we're looking at, and settle an undertaking with us on a voluntary basis before the investigation goes any further.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I guess my expectation as an elected representative would be that if we had continual abuses, the fines and penalties would move, I guess, stronger and faster. Is that the potential out there if that does take place? That's what I expect, at least, and I think that's what my constituents expect when it comes to spamming.

Again, I come from the perspective that this is a privilege: to receive unsolicited information that's designed for the purpose of the engagement of resources, that being your data, your device, and all those different things that can affect you quite seriously, from your privacy to a number of things, I don't view that as a warranted right to dispense that information upon people. I think that's a privilege. That's my perspective, anyway.

I would expect, then, that if there's an escalation or a continual pattern, there would be a reciprocal response from the CRTC on that.

11:30 a.m.

Senior Legal Counsel, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Kelly-Anne Smith

We have a legal responsibility when looking at the administrative monetary penalty. It's one of the factors that we have to look at. If there is recidivism, if there has been a past violation or a past undertaking, we have to take that into consideration in determining the quantum of the penalty, and we do.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

But there has been the suggestion—I'll be quite frank, although I'm probably not going to be popular in saying this—that it's the responsibility of a business to know the law. At the end of the day, as a citizen, it's part of my right to know what's legal and not legal for me to do. At the same time, there seems to be a pattern that there could be perhaps some better outreach or responsibility. I joked about it being like “CASL for Dummies” or something like that. I may be wrong on that, but do you think there is some type of bridging or some type of work that can be done on that? Or is that basically something you're not in the business of doing or not supported or funded to do, and that's part of the problem here?

11:30 a.m.

Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Steven Harroun

It's definitely one of our objectives. Definitely something we are funded for is CASL outreach. Absolutely, it's within our appropriation for that. We do an extensive amount of outreach, and I know at my last appearance here at this committee.... I mean, we do go from Newfoundland to Vancouver almost every year. We are, if you will, oversubscribed on the number of people who want to talk to us. We try to target as many people as we can through conferences, association events, annual meetings of real estate brokers, bankers, or whoever. That's where we try to target our outreach so that we can tackle as many companies as we possibly can.

I'd be remiss not to talk about our fightspam.gc.ca website, which has a wealth of information, as well as our colleagues at the Office of Consumer Affairs, who also have a mandate under the ISED department to provide information to consumers and small businesses. There is certainly an extensive amount of work being done. There can always be more work done, absolutely.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I'm willing to bet—don't take offence to this—that a lot of the people who get an email from the CRTC probably do unsubscribe.

11:30 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Bureaucratic information is probably not the most warranted traffic that is often sought, but it's probably more engaged during times of urgency than it in times of not.

11:30 a.m.

Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Steven Harroun

I will try not to be hurt by that comment, honourable member.

11:30 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

There you go.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

I'm feeling the love here.

11:30 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!