Evidence of meeting #27 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was stores.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stéphane Lacroix  Director of Communications and Public Affairs (Quebec), Teamsters Canada
Jerry Dias  National President, Unifor
Paul Meinema  National President, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada
Gord Currie  President, Local 414, Unifor
Carolyn Wrice  President, Local 597, Unifor

1 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I thank you. I have about 30 seconds left and I really want to hear from Teamsters Canada.

Stéphane, do you want to close?

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Mr. Lacroix, go ahead.

1 p.m.

Director of Communications and Public Affairs (Quebec), Teamsters Canada

Stéphane Lacroix

I fully agree with the representatives of Unifor and UFCW. We all know that the pandemic isn't over. The $2 an hour that has been added to the workers' wages must therefore, now and forever, be built into their wages. I'd like to stress once again that earning $25,000 a year isn't enough.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemire, you have six minutes.

July 6th, 2020 / 1 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First, I think it's important to point out the absence, on this first day, of representatives from the employer's side or from major chains. It would have been relevant to hear their opinion on this debate.

I liked the fact that Mr. Lacroix began his presentation by mentioning that, in the 1970s in particular, working in a grocery store was dignified work. In those days, a grocer's salary was enough to buy a house. That is no longer the case today, since the salary is about $25,000, which is the equivalent of $14 an hour. That gives me a lot of food for thought.

I would like to re-emphasize the basic idea of incorporating bonuses on a regular basis. It is therefore a question of increasing the minimum wage. In fact, one of the consequences is that work in grocery stores is seen as work that is more suited to students, because working conditions, such as part-time work and the lack of a pension or group insurance plan, are more easily acceptable when you are a student.

So it's definitely no longer aimed at the middle class, making it a transitional job. All the planning and logistics become more and more difficult.

I imagine that, for unions like yours, mobilizing these workers to obtain better working conditions must be rather difficult. In my opinion, in the context of the COVID-19 crisis, it should be recognized that this is an essential service and that the issue at stake is related to the dignity of workers.

In my region this morning, I attended a meeting involving representatives of the Centre intégré de santé et de services sociaux d'Abitibi-Témiscamingue. They told us that they had hired 700 people. The context of COVID-19 has been good for promoting jobs. However, the representatives added that most of these positions were filled by grocery store or convenience store employees. It is impossible for grocery stores to compete with them in terms of salaries. This bonus should be incorporated into salaries.

However, I also received several calls from these companies telling me that their employees no longer wanted to work, because they were afraid of COVID-19 and because they could get more money with the CERB. In fact, the CERB has gone from taxable to non-taxable a few times. All of this has been very difficult for employee morale, I'm sure. As elected officials, we have to do something about it.

Mr. Lacroix, do you think an order in council is conceivable to regulate the grocery industry?

1:05 p.m.

Director of Communications and Public Affairs (Quebec), Teamsters Canada

Stéphane Lacroix

Thank you for your question, Mr. Lemire.

In my opinion, this is an option that should be considered. There must be some form of framework for workers' conditions. I won't point the finger at any one company in particular, but obviously the retail trade and grocery stores in general don't seem to want to put in place working conditions that will make it possible to sustain jobs in this industry, to attract new talent or to create full-time positions, in order to create a part of the economy where people can work in this field for life, as I would have liked to do in the 1980s and 1990s. That wasn't possible then, and it's still not possible now.

It doesn't matter what kind of framework the federal government would put in place. What is important is ensuring that workers will be paid properly and that they will have decent group insurance and pension plans.

That's what's important right now, that there be some form of order in council. We know that orders in council work, because they allow for more equal competitiveness among competitors, which, surprisingly, is beneficial to private enterprise and to workers.

Earlier, you mentioned mobilization. Teamsters Canada is currently noticing a phenomenon of increased mobilization. Our members are telling us that the employer is lowering their wages by $2 an hour, that they have worked hard and that they are putting their lives at risk. Some people have told us that six months ago, they weren't considering going on strike, but that since their lives are still in danger, strike action is now a possibility. In fact, they feel they are worth more and better.

We will have to monitor this situation in the coming weeks and months.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Well, bravo.

You have one minute to answer my question. The COVID-19 crisis has highlighted shortcomings in your industry. What do you think those gaps are? What solutions do you suggest to make the food retail trade more attractive?

1:05 p.m.

Director of Communications and Public Affairs (Quebec), Teamsters Canada

Stéphane Lacroix

Since I have just spoken at length about the shortcomings in terms of workers' conditions, I won't go into that again. I think that my colleagues from Unifor and the United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada agree. That said, there may be shortcomings in the deployment of measures to deal with this type of situation. This is the first pandemic we've experienced in Canada. I don't want to be a prophet of doom, but I unfortunately believe it won't be the last.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Lacroix.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemire, I just want to let you know that grocery store representatives will be here on Friday, during our next committee meeting.

1:05 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

That's excellent news. Thank you.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

I now move to MP Masse. You have the floor for six minutes.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

I'd like to thank my colleague, Mr. Erskine-Smith, for bringing forth the motion to have the chains come forward because they were caught with collusion in the bread scandal across the country by the Competition Bureau. I amended the motion to include at least some worker representation. There's no doubt that this issue, and this industry, could use more oversight and more activity, and all members have been supportive of that. We'll see where we go, but this is just the first dive at this, no doubt.

The first question I have is for UFCW and Unifor. With regard to the structures inside both groups of workers you represent, I didn't realize that your workers at, for example, Food Basics versus Metro, or No Frills versus Loblaws, are paid differently. They could be part of the same company, but they're structured so that the basic stores, or the ones that are at the lower end of the grocery store chain in terms of their modelling, pay their workers less. Is that true?

1:10 p.m.

National President, United Food and Commercial Workers Union Canada

Paul Meinema

Mr. Masse, thank you for your question, because it will illustrate this. What's important for everybody to understand—and the Teamsters and Unifor are aware of this as well—is that the current situation that we find ourselves in with grocery store workers is that the downturn in the value of this work occurred in the late 1980s and early 1990s, with the entrance of multinational Walmart.

What occurred then was that for the first time in Canada, we had a situation of a deep discount. They paid less, they provided no benefits and they competed with the large chains that have since consolidated. As Jerry said earlier, there's been a huge consolidation, but they competed, because what we referred to as “conventional stores” that had meat departments, bakeries and full-service checkout people who took your groceries out to your car, with the new model from Walmart, their slogan was “Always low prices”, “The lowest price is the law” and “We're price dropping”.

What happened in Canada was a huge entrance into what they call discount and deep discount stores: Food Basics and No Frills, as you mentioned. What occurred is they set them up to deal with these other issues, and we've seen a decline in conventional stores.

You're absolutely correct. If you have a conventional store, like a Fortinos or an Extra Foods, you'll see that those collective agreements are superior and the rates of pay and benefits are superior to those at the deep discount stores like No Frills and Food Basics.

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you.

Is that the same with the workers that you represent, Mr. Dias?

1:10 p.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

Yes, there is no question there are different pays depending on the discount stores. One point that can't get lost when you are talking about recommendations is—and I'll go back to Michelle's question—that the federal government needs to introduce some minimum wage legislation. I understand that it governs the federal government and the federal sector, not the provincial area, but it's about taking a leadership position.

What has happened through so many of our collective agreements is that yes, our members make more than minimum wage, but when you see maximum jumps such as minimum wage in Ontario under the Wynne government and in Alberta under the Rachel Notley government, many of our members, unionized and certainly non-union, got wage increases.

It shows that governments can play a real role here. The government, recognizing the important contribution of retail workers, should do something about it.

Paul laid out the history well, but there's no question that workers who work in a main street Loblaws will make more than those who work in the discount stores.

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

There's no doubt. We started a $15 minimum wage policy federally about four years ago, I think, so even that is a modest response.

What's really upsetting to me is that I have a Food Basics in an area I represent in Windsor West that is clearly inferior in the way it's serviced, the way it's kept and its standards. What upsets me even more is hearing about this wage differential, because the people around there are also workers. It's in one of the most disadvantaged, challenged, demographically diverse areas. It has hiring issues historically.

What really bothers me a lot about this is that the stores don't have to have a policy of paying their workers differently. That's a business choice to deliberately provide lower service and fewer products. On top of that, they know they are in depressed areas compared to some of the other areas in the suburbs that are more affluent, with better jobs, better products, better service, and that's their business model. It's outright discrimination towards some of the poorest and most disadvantaged neighbourhoods we have, and they implement this policy. They build their business on it.

You wonder why people get upset about this, because the kids and the part-time workers around them.... I know, because I used to be an appointments specialist for persons with disabilities, and they are the most vulnerable in this. You're right about the hours being set and the lack of follow-up.

At any rate, this needs a lot more work than what we're doing in these committee hearings today. There's no doubt there is structural discrimination by the grocery store chains in some of the most disadvantaged areas. All you have to do is walk the aisles of the stores to see the difference. Why do some neighbourhoods get treated differently from other ones?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Unfortunately, that is your time, Mr. Masse.

We will now move to MP Gray for five minutes.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Dias, I've seen some grocers and their temporary pandemic paperwork stating that things were essentially going back to normal pay. However, we know that provincial emergency declarations still exist. I hear concerns in my constituency from small business owners when they go to their local grocery stores that they're still struggling to find things like sanitizing wipes, cleaning equipment, and protective equipment for their staff and their customers to ensure they can open safely.

Mr. Dias, would you agree that shortages of these items in grocery stores mean we're not back to normal?

1:15 p.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

I'm joined today by Gord Currie and Carolyn Wrice, presidents of locals on the ground, so why don't I turn it over to Gord to answer your question?

1:15 p.m.

Gord Currie President, Local 414, Unifor

You asked about the shortages. Yes, there still are shortages. I'm in the stores pretty well every day looking around, and you can't find hand sanitizers, Lysol wipes, and those sorts of things. I keep asking the managers and they say they have a hard time and the suppliers can't deliver them, so obviously the pandemic is still there because they're going to places that would need it more, the hospitals or whatever. Yes, that's a good point. They don't have that stuff.

I have a hard time trying to find things like that myself. I bought hand sanitizer in the variety store. That's where I had to go.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Great. Thank you for that.

Mr. Dias, you mentioned there was no coordination from the federal government to provide essential workers with protective equipment early in the pandemic.

Have you heard any concerns from employees at grocery stores you represent who are still having issues with access to a consistent supply of PPE and cleaning supplies to ensure they have a safe work environment?

1:15 p.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

There's no question. I laid out earlier on that there is a food chain for even the essential workers as to who gets what, so there is lot of difficulty within our workplaces in getting some of the basics.

Our members are upset and scared. They have the right to be, but they come to work out of commitment.

As I said, the fact that our members are frequently working in two or three different grocery stores to make ends meet is a challenge similar to what we had with the PSWs in the long-term care facilities. We know that diseases are contracted and easier to spread when people are going to multiple workplaces, so the challenges in the health care sector are alive and well in the retail sector, and our members deserve better.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tracy Gray Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Okay. Thank you for that.

I'd like to talk about the fiscal capacity of Loblaws.

We know that in 2016 Loblaws bid on and won the B.C. government's online auction to acquire B.C. wine licences. Though the final bids were not made public, we heard through government statements, in information bulletins that they put out in November of 2016, that the auction was expected to raise just under $7 million. [Technical difficulty—Editor] obviously saw the revenue opportunity in these licences. [Technical difficulty—Editor] through most of the pandemic and people basically eating from home for months. It's been reported that other liquor retailers' sales have been up.

Do you believe that companies like Loblaws have seen an increase in sales of wine, and a profit higher than the cost of the temporary pandemic pay, during this time?

1:20 p.m.

National President, Unifor

Jerry Dias

Well, the numbers speak for themselves. Ultimately, Loblaws profits in the first half of 2019 were small as compared with what they are in 2020. They will tell you quite emphatically—embarrassingly, I would suggest—that their profits during the last three months have been larger than in modern history.

So they have benefited very well from the pandemic. As I said, they should be ashamed of themselves for what they did.