Evidence of meeting #30 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was universities.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ed McCauley  President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Calgary
Matt Ratto  Associate Professor and Bell University Labs Chair in Human-Computer Interaction, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Philip Landon  Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada
Denis Martel  Rector, Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Réseau de l'Université du Québec
Magda Fusaro  Rector, Université du Québec à Montréal, Réseau de l'Université du Québec

2:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I'll close with another question to you, Dr. McCauley. I've had a few queries from students and I think this is a topic of discussion across the country. Students have said, “Look, our studies were disrupted this year. We didn't have online classes. What's the deal with tuition and how are we going to get our education?”

Do you have anything to say to them or any best practices for how universities in Canada can go forward? What are your needs from the federal government with regard to facilitating both?

2:35 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Calgary

Dr. Ed McCauley

First of all we've worked very closely with our students, both our undergraduates and our graduate students to ensure continuity for their programs. We have discussed tuition aspects with them. Our professors and our staff are delivering the same quality of materials in different formats, and in addition we're working closely with students to say if we're not offering this service, then those fees have been relaxed .

I mentioned business continuity. Our graduate students are very important for the future of Canada, and continued funding from the federal government for graduate students whose research programs have been interrupted would be very beneficial.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I just want to take the opportunity with the time I have left to thank you, Dr. McCauley, and the entire team at the University of Calgary for doing your best and punching above your weight during this crisis, from a research perspective and by looking for ways to support our community during an economic crisis. I hope all of my colleagues on this committee will look to your institution as a way to assist Alberta through the economic crisis and during the pandemic. Thank you for all of your hard work.

2:35 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Calgary

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much.

We now turn to MP Lambropoulos.

You have the floor for six minutes.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thanks to all of our witnesses for being with us today. I have a few questions for several different witnesses. The first is for Mr. Landon of Universities Canada.

You mentioned that obviously the international student community is is very important to us. It's great revenue for the universities and for our GDP. Have you noticed a decrease in enrolment for the upcoming term and for the upcoming year? What exactly is the reason? Considering that most universities or many of them have said that they will be going online for the fall and winter semesters, what do you believe the reason is for this decrease in enrolment by international students who could very well take the courses from their home countries?

2:35 p.m.

Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada

Philip Landon

The hard data on enrolment is still in flux. We'll probably know in October, I would think, at institutions across the country as to how much of a hit there has been. The fact is that right now, if I'm a student looking to come to Canada for the first time from China, I don't actually have a clear pathway to come. I do have a pathway to study online, which is good, but international students want to come to Canada. That's part of why they study here, and that's why they contribute to our classrooms and then often to our communities as time goes on. There has been a little lack of clarity around that and around the openness.

I do understand that the Public Health Agency of Canada is now working with the ministries of health in the provinces and territories to ensure that the universities have the right protocols in place, and the universities do. We are really looking for a strong signal that students will be able to come back, not only for this semester but actually for the January semester, as students come in. As I outlined in my testimony to begin with, this is a huge part of a university's revenue, it's a huge part of what we do as Canada and it's a huge part of our future to be open to international students—so we should see.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you.

If I understand correctly, you're asking for some leeway as well with regard to giving access, to international students who have proof of enrolment, to coming across the borders now that they're currently closed.

2:35 p.m.

Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Universities Canada

Philip Landon

Correct. As I understand it right now, they still have to have a letter to say why they must come across, and that's being interpreted by border officers in different ways. However, that is if they have a student permit from before March 18. We're looking for clarity on that. We know that our universities are ready to accept them and that they have quarantine measures in place. It's part of our competitive advantage internationally to be able to welcome international students back to our campuses at this time.

2:35 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

As many of you have mentioned, your universities played a vital role in helping communities across the country come up with solutions to COVID-19, some more vulnerable communities in some cases. I feel there's often a disconnect between our universities and our businesses, or a disconnect between the universities and actually being able to reach the community level. Do you have any suggestions as to how the Government of Canada can help maybe bridge the gap that exists there between the two?

That question goes to any of the witnesses who wish to answer. I think Mr. Ratto had mentioned something along these lines.

2:40 p.m.

Associate Professor and Bell University Labs Chair in Human-Computer Interaction, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Prof. Matt Ratto

I think you're right. I think there's often a disconnect. We've seen that disconnect, though, be brought back together, particularly with groups that have community-focused research. We've seen it in education and we've seen it in social work, where community-based research has served to basically allow the university to provide a valuable role in those contexts. I think community-based innovation can serve a similar purpose, with the goal not necessarily being the creation of new pedagogies or forms of social work, but actually the creation of technologies and other systems that can provide direct benefits.

Sometimes that sits outside the standard mechanisms of business. That's why I focused my attention on the creation of alternative organizational forms and alternative forms of support for bridging that gap through the use of technology.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. McCauley, I believe you had also mentioned something about that, if you would like to chime in and give recommendations.

2:40 p.m.

President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Calgary

Dr. Ed McCauley

The first piece is on, once again, dealing with the COVID-19 emergency and making sure the most needy in society were gaining access to resources. I think what we're going to find with COVID-19, and we're already seeing it, is that the changes in life are really going to have an impact on mental health, which we have really tried to invest significantly in to try to provide the supports necessary for the community.

We have also been working closely with businesses and with industry, providing public health advice as to how they can reopen, how they can restart and how they can maintain business continuity.

I would also like to support Professor Ratto's comments about use-inspired research. Universities across the country invest in that really significantly, and that means the knowledge we create can be mobilized quite quickly for the benefit of society.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

That's my time, so thank you very much.

2:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you, Ms. Lambropoulos.

It's your turn, Mr. Lemire. You have six minutes.

2:40 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks also goes to my fellow committee members for wanting to continue this work on universities. As I see it, support for research is important.

Today is August 14. Mr. Martel, the university's current rector, will clearly remember what this day represents.

My father was the registrar at the Université du Québec 10 years ago. On that August 14, I was at the cottage, finishing up construction on the tree house he had started for his grandkids.

The day before, August 13, the Université du Québec had honoured him. I mention the date of that anniversary, Mr. Martel, to highlight the work that you, yourself, and Johanne Jean, the current head of the Université du Québec system, do. Those are still vivid memories for me.

My first question is obviously for the Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue, or UQAT, official. I'm very proud to be able to discuss these issues in a setting like this.

What role does a university play in a region, specifically, Abitibi-Témiscamingue?

2:40 p.m.

Rector, Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Réseau de l'Université du Québec

Denis Martel

Thank you for your question, Mr. Lemire.

You brought up some sad memories, indeed, but also memories of a great man.

I often talk about the true role a university in the regions plays. I can sum it up in one sentence. A regional university, like ours, is a contributor to and a driver of the region's development.

It contributes to development by providing leadership, coordination and partnership, as well as by bringing stakeholders together and being a motivating force. It drives development by attracting businesses because they know they will have access to a highly skilled workforce. It draws students and brilliant minds who support the area's social and cultural advancement.

All that to say, a regional university plays a fundamental role. In regions like ours, it really serves a primary function.

August 14th, 2020 / 2:40 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Clearly, that fundamental role in regional development factors little into the research funding scheme, and we would really do well to do a better job of spreading funding around to target basic research.

It's a fact that 15 or so major universities receive nearly 100% of research funding. We need to stop the concentration of research funding and spread the funding around to benefit regional universities like yours.

The federal government needs to allocate significant funding to support universities in their efforts to assist the economic recovery.

Wage support for research office personnel is another important consideration, as is distance education support for students, especially international ones. It's also necessary to support paid work placements that businesses provide to students. Obviously, this is an area where funding needs to go to, and be managed by, the provinces. Universities are under provincial jurisdiction, after all.

Do you think it would be a good idea for the federal government to review its funding scheme?

2:45 p.m.

Rector, Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Réseau de l'Université du Québec

Denis Martel

It's the funding scheme, yes, but it's also the approach taken.

In our brief, we refer to a few examples and suggestions.

As my colleague Ms. Fusaro said, Canada has a hundred or so universities. By allocating 55% to 60% of research funding to a select group, the government is penalizing universities like ours, and those in regions across Canada, especially rural ones. It makes it hard for us to renew our knowledge and talent pool and to attract young researchers in search of career advancement.

There are ways to adjust existing programs to better allocate funding to all universities, and that means a fairer allocation of funding. That's crucial.

We can't afford to lose out on everyone's expertise. We say it all the time. The Naylor report did a good job of highlighting that excellence is not tied to a single institution, but is found in every university. It's unfortunate for Canada to miss out on that potential and capability. We have to figure out how everyone can contribute more effectively.

2:45 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I would add that it's important to have dedicated funding for the pooling of regional resources to support investments in knowledge-sharing mechanisms. Doing so would build both practical and theoretical knowledge, fostering the diversity and solution-finding capability businesses in the regions need. The environment is another important area of focus, and UQAT is especially proactive on that front.

Another important challenge in this COVID-19 era is the whole matter of international students. Clearly, the Université du Québec system welcomes many of them.

If Abitibi-Témiscamingue can't host international students, how might that impact your funding?

If international students can't enrol as planned, does provincial, but especially federal, legislation affect your ability to welcome students and, ultimately, balance the budget?

2:45 p.m.

Rector, Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Réseau de l'Université du Québec

Denis Martel

Of course, it has financial repercussions. In Quebec, the provincial government was able to make some adjustments that will help mitigate those repercussions in the upcoming year. However, the repercussions will be much more significant in the future. That means the financial repercussions are serious. We need to be able to welcome international students. The biggest repercussions are obviously financial, but above all, Canada runs the risk of losing out on great minds that are crucial to innovation development in the country.

In a region like ours, it's fundamental, and we know it. We have sectors that are a lot more focused on natural resources. We could start providing distance education classes to foreign students, but they have to be able to get here and be on the ground quickly, working in mines and forests, or doing agricultural research. That requires opening up the borders a little more and finding ways to bring those students to our institutions.

2:45 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Martel.

2:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much.

We now go to MP Masse.

You have the floor for six minutes.

2:45 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

With regard to the start of the meeting, I want it to be clear that the NDP supports this excellent motion that was presented for us to consider in future business. I want to make a small amendment. Just so people know where we're coming from, I will let you know that we would add third party sellers on the Amazon marketplace, or those formally on it, and consumer organizations. Being from Windsor, I watch the United States very carefully. U.S. lawmakers have been going after a number of issues related to Amazon. I'm simply tired of Canada being treated as a colony by some of these organizations. This is an opportunity that we should take. I'm sorry we missed it this time, but I'm looking forward to that.

With that, Madam Chair, I will turn to our excellent witness panel here.

Mr. Ratto, you gave a great example of the production of real goods and services from the university that get to our streets. I thought that was excellent. Where I'm from, the University of Windsor has been doing that in a variety of ways, everything from the automotive sector to a whole series of science and health products and so forth that were, before COVID-19, a part of our culture here.

I do want you to maybe mention or at least highlight some of the patent barriers you might have and some of the intellectual property barriers you might have. This committee has studied some of those in the past. Perhaps you can shine a light on how those things can be altered, especially during emergencies, or how they can be refined for more open research to help these types of initiatives, which you should be, and I'm sure you are, quite proud of.

2:50 p.m.

Associate Professor and Bell University Labs Chair in Human-Computer Interaction, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Prof. Matt Ratto

Well, thank you very much. That's a great question. I'm often very concerned with and focused on IP, and not necessarily for the same reasons you just mentioned. Within the university, I think we have a tendency to see intellectual property as one of the primary ways that we create value—through the production of ideas that are then patented or somehow have some type of IP protection, which then gives us the capacity to exchange those or sell them out to industry. What I've actually been seeing during this COVID period is people choosing the alternative path—choosing not to patent, choosing not to copyright even their inventions. You saw this, in this committee, with Dr. McDonald talking about the lack of patenting of the ventilator.

The issue here is not so much that people may not have the freedom to operate or that they may be restricted by patent, but that they may be restricted by their own institutions, which may not understand how to value the results they have created unless there is somehow intellectual property involved. It's quite interesting that IP is often valued in the same way that, say, a published article might be valued in the university. That's a great way for people to kind of pad out their CV. What do you do if what you're creating results in neither one of those two things but has real impact in the world? How do you navigate that? I think that's actually a bigger restriction.

In a series of interviews I've done with people who've been participating with my own little group, the Toronto emergency device accelerator, this has been highlighted as a real issue for them, that they've taken time out of their normal work, their normal research, to try to have a real impact, and now they're looking at, “Well, what has this really done to my career?” I find it very sad that this is the case.