Evidence of meeting #20 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was covid-19.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
As a solution, you're suggesting some sort of protocol or practice to make the activities and discussions of the task force public.
Should the minutes of the task force's meetings be available to the public?
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Our next round of questions goes to MP Garrison.
You have the floor for two and half minutes.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I'm always concerned when senior public servants like Madam Nemer don't have sufficient time to spend with parliamentary committees. I have more things I would like to discuss that involve her. It always seems poor form to do so after the person has left the meeting.
We have a well-known problem in the public in people becoming tired of the epidemic and therefore not behaving as their best selves or as best citizens. I think we have another problem and I would call that COVID complacency. We are now starting to hear, “Well, we're doing our best.” For me, that's very cold comfort for people in my riding who are still continuing to lose loved ones. I have a very tourism-dependent riding. It's very cold comfort to those employed in the tourism industry who are losing their jobs and losing their small businesses because we haven't made enough progress against COVID.
The question that I will ask is a question I would have asked Madam Nemer, had she still been here.
The task force advised the government on contracts with the major companies like Pfizer. In those contracts, I'm afraid we don't have the assurances that if there's a third wave or it requires a change of vaccines.... Those contracts, as we've seen with the EU, only specify best efforts from the companies. They're not actually contracts to provide certain amounts of vaccine by a certain date.
Maybe Professor Kobinger knows a bit more about this. I am concerned. Without being an alarmist, I'm concerned that things could still go very wrong here in terms of vaccine deliveries.
Professor Kobinger, can you comment on the issue of contracts and whether they are contracts for delivery?
12:45 p.m.
Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
Thank you for asking.
Maybe that highlights another issue. The issue is that these contracts are confidential. Nobody has access to them. It's an issue that is not only on the vaccine side, but also all the pharmaceutical industry that is dealing with provinces independently.
I think it highlights another thing. As long as we Canadians don't produce more of those tools—drugs and vaccines—we are in the little seat in these negotiations.
Thank you.
12:45 p.m.
Chairman, Precision NanoSystems
In the case of therapeutics, I've been familiar with Eli Lilly, which has produced an antibody-based therapeutic for the treatment of COVID-19 that has been used hundreds of thousands of times in the U.S. They are distributing it on an as-needed basis and globally to Germany, France, Israel and other locations.
When there's a supply problem, there will be some sort of “on an as-needed basis” in terms of allocating distribution.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Thank you very much.
That's the end of the time.
MP Garrison, just in terms of transparency, I did mention at the beginning of this meeting what time Dr. Nemer had to leave. You had two rounds of questions in advance of this one. If you had a question specifically for her, you could have asked it then.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
With respect, Madam Chair, the committee meeting was scheduled for a full two hours. My concern is that the chief science officer needed to be available for that full time, not whether I had opportunities to question her in various rounds.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
The government and all the public servants must be accountable to Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
MP Garrison, we're now going to the next round of questions. Thank you.
The next round goes to the Conservative Party. My apologies, I do not have a name of who is next on the list.
It's MP Généreux.
You have the floor for five minutes.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Kobinger, I definitely want to come back to the CanSino story. I heard the chief science advisor, who advises the Prime Minister, say something earlier, whereas you said the opposite.
To the best of your recollection, when did the task force approve CanSino and when was that approval withdrawn?
My colleague asked a question that you seem to have answered differently.
12:50 p.m.
Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
I was trying to find the dates in my calendar, but I don't have the right one.
However, I can tell you that the public announcement had already been made before the task force held its first six-hour meeting, which was supposed to focus on conflicts of interest. The deal had already been settled.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Was it around June 22?
12:50 p.m.
Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
No. The announcement was made before the first meeting, which took place in late June or early July. As I recall, the first recommendation that referred to CanSino was made in July or August. The recommendation was subsequently withdrawn, possibly in August.
Someone must have an email somewhere about this matter. I should be able to find an email of this nature myself if I dig deep enough.
February 25th, 2021 / 12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
If you get hold of the email, we would greatly appreciate it if you could pass it on to our committee.
This all started in late February or early March last year. Canada currently ranks 58th in the world in terms of vaccinations. We can pat ourselves on the back and say that we're very good and that we've done our job well. However, in reality, a developed country like Canada is in 58th place. Let's not forget either that Canada went to COVAX to get vaccines. It's as if we gave money to a food bank and then went to get food there the following week.
What are your thoughts on this? How do you feel about everything that has happened, from the beginning of all the talks and the negotiation of the agreements right up until today?
12:50 p.m.
Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
We're reaping what we've sown. I know that what I'm saying sounds like criticism.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
That's fine. You have the right to be critical.
12:50 p.m.
Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
I've tried to point out all the successes and the fantastic agreements that have been reached. That said, if you want to make things better for next time, you must know where to focus your efforts.
You must acknowledge that opportunities were missed and that CanSino was a scientific boondoggle at all levels, in my opinion, and even a conflict of interest for a co-chair of the task force.
You said that Canada ranks 58th. That's unfortunate, and we shouldn't be there. What I find even more unfortunate is that there's a disconnect between what we're seeing on the ground and what we're hearing. According to Ms. Nemer, everything is fine, everything is resolved and everything is all right. That's why I said that her remarks seemed to have been reviewed by the government. The president of the National Research Council of Canada made the same remarks on Monday when he appeared before the Standing Committee on Health. However, we aren't seeing this situation on the ground. People don't have access to vaccines. People are dying from COVID-19. In Quebec, 16 health care workers have died from it and there have been 33,000 infections. These 16 deaths could have been prevented.
You must acknowledge this and address the situation for next time, so that more people don't die when they could have been saved.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I want to come back to the agreement with CanSino. It was cancelled around August. You said earlier that we can walk and chew gum at the same time. That's what Canada has done by signing agreements with several countries.
I'm not calling into question all the work done, the good will and good faith of all the people who have worked on the issue since the beginning, or all their efforts. However, we must learn some lessons as we analyze the process from beginning to end, including where we are today. In your opinion, what do we need to address to avoid a repeat of what we never want to see happen again?
12:55 p.m.
Professor, Université Laval, As an Individual
You certainly need to address the coordination and the way that the advisory boards operate. You must also ensure that the boards are independent from the government of the day, regardless of the party in power. You need a better structure and greater coordination when you decide to invest, especially when you know that future generations will end up with the bills. You must invest for the future and follow up in real time.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you, Mr. Kobinger.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Thank you.
Our next round of questions goes to MP Jaczek.
You have the floor for five minutes.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Helena Jaczek Liberal Markham—Stouffville, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses for their testimony today and, in fact, for their enthusiasm for what Canada has to offer the world in terms of vaccine production and therapeutics.
I'd like to quote from a previous witness, however, and some of you may know him. Professor Attaran at our meeting on February 16 said that Canada “is simply the least scientifically competent country I've ever come across.”
Dr. Mossman, could you please, as an academic, tell me what you think of the scientific competence here in Canada?