Industry Committee on May 13th, 2021

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes.

[John Galt]

We can support our customers in some ways, but in other ways we need to be there. It's been enormously difficult for us to get people across the border to provide the necessary services to keep the production of things, like these IV connectors, going, and at the same time to get them back across the border with a two-week quarantine before they can go back again. I can tell you, after doing that three or four times, many of our service people are saying, “I can't do this anymore. There's too much time away from my family.” We really need to find a way to ensure that...so that those who are necessary have a seamless and easy way to make it happen. Canada's an export country. If we can't perform and support our customers, we're in trouble.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Galt and Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

We'll now start our second round of questions. Our first round goes to Monsieur Généreux for five minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I thank all the witnesses. Everything we are hearing this morning is really very interesting.

I would like to ask questions of Mr. Leclerc and Ms. Aubry, but I will put one to Mr. Mills first.

My mother used to say, “If nothing gets created, nothing gets lost.”

Mr. Mills, earlier you talked about exports in relation to the greenhouse gas issue. If we want to create an electric car fleet in a time frame that I too find completely unrealistic, it will require mines, as you said. In Quebec, it takes 10 years to open a mine.

They want to create new mines to extract the raw material needed to manufacture the batteries in question and export it to China, where the batteries will unfortunately be manufactured, and then import those batteries here to install them in electric vehicles. There's something unrealistic about that.

We all live on the same planet. We all want to make the transition at some point. What are your thoughts on this transition?

How long is it going to be? How long is it going to take?

[Mark P. Mills]

The short answer is the transition will take many decades to effect, given the magnitude of the materials involved just in the electric car supply chain—never mind the other green machines. It's just the electric car side. Any serious analysis sees this as taking many decades—not one or two.

Given the state of the world today and what we know now about where these minerals are produced.... Most cobalt is in the Democratic Republic of Congo, while 90% of all cobalt refining in the world is in China on a grid that's 60% coal-fired. The majority of the world's neodymium is refined in China on a coal-fired grid.

If you do the accounting properly, we have to be honest. We don't really know what the emissions are upstream in many cases, because the mines in countries don't co-operate—and are not required to—to tell how they do their processes.

For those estimates—and there are estimates—you can reasonably conclude that there's no net change. In fact, in some cases there's even an increase in global CO2 emissions associated with the nature of the process we have today to replace an internal combustion engine with a battery-powered vehicle.

Again, this is not a policy statement or a political desire one way or the other. These are just the physical facts of the processes that exist.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Aubry, I found your idea about a support fund for regional projects interesting. Incidentally, I happen to live in a region.

I have the impression that Mr. Rousson and Mr. Lemire are related, because their voices sound the same to me.

Even if I've only ever been to Abitibi-Témiscamingue once in my life, I think it is an absolutely wonderful place. I also think that you are doing fantastic work there with industry. The city of La Pocatière has a strong academic sector, which includes the Institut de technologie agroalimentaire and the Cégep de La Pocatière. The city has established relationships with industrial businesses that have had a presence in the region, such as Bombardier, and now Alstom. Links have been created between the universities and grant sources.

You said that a support fund should be set up to help grassroots projects. That is music to my ears. Can you tell us a bit more about this?

Mr. Leclerc, I would like to hear your take on this as well, because I believe that Écotech Québec is also present everywhere in the province.

[Geneviève Aubry]

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

We have been working on the Lake Osisko project for two years now, and we have managed to find quite a few partners, including financial backers. One of the hurdles that we are facing, however, is the selection criteria. On the one hand, we are often asked to submit innovative projects that have high potential, but on the other hand, the criteria for the programs are often inflexible.

At the end of the day, we find ourselves having to scale down our ambitions and our vision to meet established criteria which in many cases are out of synch with our reality. Moreover, the projects are often evaluated within a strict framework, regardless of...

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

So there is no flexibility.

[Geneviève Aubry]

Who is better placed to evaluate the projects if not people from the region?

When I talk about having a legitimate selection committee, I'm not just talking about the need for representation. We really need a selection committee whose members are from the region and whose legitimacy, transparency, analytical skills and desire to work for the common good are widely recognized by regional stakeholders. This would be a game changer.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Leclerc, can you please talk about this aspect, particularly in a regional context?

[Denis Leclerc]

We can talk about criteria, but we have to change our approach. We should be talking about desired results and not criteria. Results bring about innovation and allow us to realize a clear objective. We should abandon the notion of criteria and concentrate on the desired result.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Généreux.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Amos.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

We are so pleased to have our witnesses here with us today. This is a very interesting subject, a new direction for the Canadian economy and the way to get to zero deficit. Of course, we are talking about the role of the state, but also that of the private sector. It will also be very interesting to discuss the research that is taking place in post-secondary institutions.

My first question is for Mr. Rousson, who is representing the Université du Québec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, or UQAT, and who talked about the investments made by the federal government since 2015. According to the information I have here, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada provided almost $15 million in funding to UQAT in the areas of natural sciences and engineering. We know that our government has provided the most funding to our research organizations in our country's history, particularly since the 2018 budget.

Mr. Rousson, can you tell us what type of funding you received and how it was used?

Could you also talk to us about grants from the Canadian Foundation for Innovation? This is another important source of funding. I know that UQAT has received grants from it as well.

[Vincent Rousson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Amos.

That is an excellent question. I tip my hat to the Government of Canada, which has invested heavily in academic research over the past few years to help us find the tools we need and acquire the necessary hi-tech infrastructure. You mentioned the Canadian Foundation for Innovation, the CFI. My university has received quite a lot of funding, and other universities in the region, in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada have also been beneficiaries.

We have to keep the momentum going. We got the ball rolling. The teams are getting better and we have a circular relationship going. Indeed, the better the teams perform and the better they work with industry, the more industry invests in university research and the more funds can be used in tandem with the grants that we receive. As the circular relationship gets more and more firmly established, there is more research, more innovation and more investment in enterprise.

The Government of Canada should keep funding Canadian grant organizations, whether it be in the natural or the social sciences. Social sciences are extremely important. We should invest more in our grant organizations, because innovation not only happens on the technological front, but also in terms of human and social progress. We have to continue to invest.

I am talking about investing in human beings who help us to pursue development in a different way. We have received quite a bit of funding which has allowed us to receive more Canadian research chairs. These research chairs are allocated proportionally based on research. Our university was allocated four new chairs recently because of our research. Canadian universities are currently enjoying tremendous momentum.

[William Amos, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Rousson.

I am happy to hear you confirm that the Government of Canada has invested heavily in UQAT. This has allowed for real co-operation between the private sector, civil society and researchers and will help us get to a greener economy. I know that quite a number of these investments are aimed at clean energy.

Maybe I'll turn this to all witnesses, starting with Mr. Leclerc and Mr. Galt. I'll be quick.

Budget 2021 recently made massive investments in the net-zero accelerator fund. We're talking about $8 billion in funding that will enable greenhouse gas emission reductions across many industrial sectors.

Mr. Galt, could you comment on the pertinence of such investments?

[John Galt]

It's not really that useful for us. When you think about Husky Energy, when you think about the small and medium-sized enterprises across Canada involved in the plastics industry, the toxic designation and the failure to focus on recovery of the materials have more to do with the economic stress we're feeling right now than seeing this current point in time as an opportunity.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you. Unfortunately, MP Amos, that's your time.

Mr. Lemire, you have two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would simply like to say to the honourable member from Pontiac that his riding is enormous and includes the municipality of Grand-Remous, which is close to the UQAT centre in Mont-Laurier. Our ridings are neighbours.

Ms. Aubry, the city of Rouyn-Noranda will soon be celebrating the 100th anniversary of its foundation. The city is not as old as Montreal, which will be 400 years old soon, or La Pocatière, but it will nonetheless be marking its centenary and you will probably be involved in the celebrations.

What can you tell us about the role Collectif Territoire is playing in our economic and environmental recovery in terms of regional innovation and helping industry to transition? What role can Collectif Territoire play in this recovery?

[Geneviève Aubry]

Collectif Territoire is a middleman in the world of innovation. A middleman plays a vital role when there is a systemic vision for innovation which calls upon the skills and expertise of various organizations. This role is all the more important when stakeholders are using the innovation ecosystem to bring key actors together and tear down silos and borders. This is the role we are playing.

We add value to the transfer of scientific knowledge to industry, as Mr. Rousson mentioned, because we bridge the gap between applied and pure research. We also work to foster scientific awareness among school-aged children by encouraging artists and cultural organizations to contribute to efforts aimed at gathering knowledge, teaching and communication.

All this contributes to a holistic vision and ensures that we are not only talking about radical innovation, but also reworking existing innovative projects that will lead us to a sustainable green recovery.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Your president, Patrick Martel, who works at TechnoSub, has a vision and keeps an eye on new technologies and trends and the best innovative work being done all over the world. Is that useful to you? If it is, how?

We know that the aim is that people can once again swim in Lake Osisko, which is near downtown Rouyn-Noranda.

Do you think that is feasible?

[Geneviève Aubry]

That work is extremely useful. Mr. Martel is in contact with divers from OceanX, a Dutch organization, which is developing...

I see that I have no more time left. I'm sorry.

I will just end by saying that it is very useful to us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to MP Masse for two and a half minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'll let Ms. Aubry continue and finish her statement there.

Please, go ahead and finish your statement.

[Geneviève Aubry]

Thank you very much.

We are indeed in contact with researchers from all over the world who communicate with us thanks to the fantastic network of contacts that Mr. Martel has set up. What's more, TechnoSub is a regional business. It has recently been awarded a prestigious label from the Solar Impulse Foundation for its innovative product called MudWizard, which separates mud from water, thanks to tablets which are potato-based. Innovation is everywhere in Abitibi-Témiscamingue.