Industry Committee on May 27th, 2021

[Mark Carney]

You've asked me the question. I have no reason to believe that is the case, no.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Okay, but you don't know. It just seems astonishing to me that someone who's responsible for environment, social and governance would not want to guarantee that raw materials for your products are not coming from that kind of a region, and you just said that the provenance is China. The region in China where this material is produced is the Xinjiang region. I'm just shocked that you haven't looked into this. It seems like you're concerned more with shareholder profits than you are with human rights and social justice.

I'm going to ask a question now. Your CEO says that a third of Brookfield's business will be in China within 25 years. China's the biggest emitter of greenhouse gases in the world. Why are you moving your resources and your capital to a country that has such intense emissions of greenhouse gases when that's the opposite of what you state is your purpose?

[Mark Carney]

To be clear on the specifics, my role at Brookfield is to develop a strategy, which we are developing, to invest in companies to remove and eliminate greenhouse gases. That's the impact. That's the transition approach.

What one does in that situation, if you follow, is you go to where the emissions are and you convert dirty activities to green activities, and in fact, when I accepted the invitation from this committee, I believed the focus of the committee would be on how we could do it for Canada. Brookfield is working, and what I'm doing, representing—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Anyway, I don't think I'm getting an answer here—

[Mark Carney]

If I may, if I may—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

You've had plenty of time, sir. May I please go on to my next question?

[Mark Carney]

Actually, I wouldn't mind, rather than having your characterization of what I do, being allowed to give the facts of what I do and what my responsibilities are. My responsibilities at Brookfield are to develop a transition fund that we think will be world-leading, which is to help companies around the world—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

And I'm commenting on the impact that that has on human rights around the world, sir. That's the point, and so I'll conclude—

[Mark Carney]

—reduce their greenhouse gas emissions and do so in an—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

In an ethical way, thank you.

I have a final question.

Do you believe that the Chinese government is perpetrating a genocide on the Uighur people?

Put shareholder profits aside and just focus on humanity here for a moment.

[Mark Carney]

I focus on humanity, I spend lots of time—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

So yes or no. Yes or no.

[Mark Carney]

—focused on humanity with [Inaudible—Editor]. I'm deeply concerned by the situation in—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Poilievre. Unfortunately, you're a little over time.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

It' shareholders first, protecting the profits over the people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much, Mr. Poilievre.

Our next round of questioning goes to MP Ehsassi.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and to all of the witnesses. I have to share with you that I've never seen such unbridled enthusiasm amongst my colleagues. Thank you for appearing here today and for your testimony.

Now I have questions for Mr. Choi as well as Mr. Carney. Perhaps I should start with Mr. Choi.

Mr. Choi, it is incredible what you are doing at GHGSat. This is really cutting-edge work that you've undertaken, and in your testimony you refer to “actionable data”. Who is that actionable data for?

[Eric Choi]

Mr. Ehsassi, thank you so much for this question and for the opportunity to be here and address the committee today.

When we talk about actionable data, we talk about having timely, objective and transparent measures of greenhouse gas emissions for various stakeholders, who at this point are primarily in the commercial sector. We provide our data to the oil and gas sector. We provide our data to the resource sector, to the waste management sector, to the energy sector, and also in general to the sustainability sector. In the future we feel that this objective data on greenhouse gas emissions would also be of tremendous value as the financial world pivots towards ESG metrics, and certainly there would be a lot of value in that regard as well.

The other area for providing information, as I hinted at in my prepared remarks, is governments and government regulations, and supporting government regulations as we look towards things like Canada's obligations under the Paris Agreement and the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act. We're already engaged with a number of provincial authorities, for example, the Alberta Energy Regulator and similar authorities in B.C. and in other provinces, and we very much look forward to an opportunity to bring our capabilities to bear to serve the needs of the Government of Canada as a whole.

Thank you very much for your question.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Choi.

Now, if I could go to Mr. Carney, you have been on the record on numerous occasions suggesting that climate change is a great concern. However, you also talk about both the challenges and the opportunities for Canadian companies. You have said those that invest in achieving net zero will be rewarded and those that remain part of the problem will be punished.

Can you talk about both sides of the ledger and unpack it for us?

[Mark Carney]

Thank you for the question.

I think the first step is to recognize that the scale of the risk involved with climate change is real. It needs to be addressed, and I commend the government for recognizing both aspects of that.

Second, it is being clear how it is going to be addressed and the speed with which it will be addressed—and not just net zero by 2050, which is the minimum required to stabilize the climate. Very importantly, it has interim targets and those interim targets are backed up by real policies, such as a price on carbon, and the measures implemented in the budget and many others.

The point is that what's begun to happen and is happening is that companies, entrepreneurs and individuals are responding. Some of them are represented here today. Think of the innovation that Mr. Choi just spoke of, with his company coming up with solutions that address the problem. Those solutions have value. Those solutions are valuable. They are helping us, in Mr. Choi's case for example, to have real-time monitoring of emissions, such as methane, across the world. This means investments can be made, verified and tracked over time so that we get these types of emissions reductions.

There are a number of other examples. Mr. Bonapace has spoken about the building industry and the opportunities in artificial intelligence and machine learning. There are many Canadian companies, many of which are centred in Quebec, in fact, in the artificial intelligence cluster there, that had that HVAC optimization expertise. That's another example.

I'll finish with this, Madam Chair. As we move forward into a hydrogen economy, we think about very crucial technologies—and it's surprising we haven't really addressed them today—around carbon capture, storage and direct air capture. These are essential technologies for Canadian energy and for Canadian jobs. We absolutely need these technologies to work in order to have the transition that Canadians deserve.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

We will now go into our third round. Our first five-minute round goes to MP Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

I just want to make sure that we're not dealing with more hypocritical window dressing here.

Mr. Carney, it wouldn't cost your shareholders for you to recognize the Chinese genocide of the Uighur people, because you're planning to move a third of your company's half-trillion-dollar portfolio to that country, but it would be the right thing to do and it would be a courageous thing to do.

[Mark Carney]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

So, yes or no—don't interrupt my question. I haven't asked it yet.

Will you recognize, on behalf of your company, the genocide perpetrated by China against the Uighur people? Yes or no?