Industry Committee on May 27th, 2021

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Conservation groups in the United States estimate that by 2030 windmills will be killing more than 1.4 million birds and that in 2012 they killed over half a million birds.

Does that bother you at all, or do you think this is just the price of doing business and turning over a profit to your shareholders?

[Mark Carney]

One thing, Mr. Poilievre, is that, perhaps unlike you, I accept that climate change is real, and I'm aware that over the course of my lifetime and your lifetime, 70% of the mammal species on earth have been reduced. We're talking about the sixth mass extinction, and the issue to address it requires renewable energy.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

We're investing more in foreign oil, as you're doing, and profiting from the biggest-emitting country in the world, in China. Thank you for your lecture on all of that, but it's been pretty clear through your testimony today, if I may say so, that whether it's in your refusal to commit to turning down these massive and unjustifiable subsidies in Ontario that have driven people into poverty and people to the food bank; whether it's in your refusal to recognize the genocide in China against the Uighurs for fear that you would lose out on business in that country; whether it's in your false statement that your company is net zero when it's not net zero; or whether it is in your decision to continue profiting from foreign petroleum investments in the Middle East and Latin America while opposing our energy workers here at home, your talk is really more hypocritical window-dressing than it is actually environmental, social, and governance-based.

When we see people who come here with their big salaries and lecture working class people about why they should pay more for energy and have fewer jobs in the resource sector, while you are protected and your company makes a fortune from it, can you understand why people are just a little bit suspicious of the motives?

[Mark Carney]

Mr. Poilievre, I have limited time to correct all of the falsehoods in the premise of that statement, but let me go through some. First, I was clear about the contribution of Brookfield, which is absolutely enormous, to renewable energy, including in this country.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Is it net zero?

[Mark Carney]

As I said, it is the only major asset managed in the past at net zero.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Is it net zero now, as you said?

[Mark Carney]

If I may continue, since you had a long—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

You claimed it was net zero.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Mr. Poilievre, will you please let...?

Thank you.

[Mark Carney]

The commitment to ethically sourcing and vendor management.... I am absolutely committed to first recognizing that there's an energy transition; second, recognizing that by doing so we can create huge job opportunities across the energy sector; third, that it isn't just going to happen. If we bicker and fight and debate but don't move to actual policies and actual measures, we are not going to get Canadians the jobs and the futures they deserve, we are not going to preserve our natural heritage, we are not going to address climate change, we are not going to have a stronger and more inclusive economy.

I came here with a series of proposals. You have asked nothing about any of those proposals. You've betrayed no interest in any of the issues that will actually create a more sustainable future for other Canadians. You've betrayed no interest in any of the comments of the experts and the entrepreneurs who came to this committee. We need more focus on solutions, Mr. Poilievre.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, that's the end of MP Poilievre's time.

We now go to MP Jaczek for the last round.

You have five minutes.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I do want to thank all of the witnesses for your very interesting testimony. I wish we had more time to get into some of your suggestions.

Our committee is charged with making concrete recommendations for the economic recovery post-COVID-19. We've been focusing very much on the green economy.

Turning first to Mr. Carney, in terms of your international experience, as UN special envoy and so on, are there any areas, other than perhaps the financial investment that both you and Mr. Bradley have referenced is needed, that you think Canada is missing in terms of initiatives and that we haven't addressed here today, perhaps?

Could you give us some opinion based on your international experience and knowledge.

[Mark Carney]

I recognize that time is short, so thank you for the question.

Apart from the financial initiatives, in other words, the ones for the financial sector, which I'll take as read, I would emphasize the advantages of the following. We have not talked about building codes; they are not directly in your responsibility, but it is advantageous to be working with others for building codes. Here I'll refer to Mr. Bonapace's comments at the outset and the importance of pulling those through and pulling demand through on that. I'll emphasize as well the possibility of contractor differences within the hydrogen sector and the importance of developing those technologies as well.

I'll also refer quickly to my comments moments ago about investment tax credits, expanding the universe for that and actually having a dynamic contribution, let's call it, to section 43.1, which I think you know what I mean. The one thing we know is that people, such as those represented here—not myself but the entrepreneurs here—will come up with new ideas and new technologies and so we need a dynamic way to provide a level playing field for support for those technologies.

My last point is that I recognize that electricity is a provincial responsibility, but I do underscore, as Mr. Bradley said at the outset, just how central it is to our transition. We need to recognize that; we need to do everything we can to support what's required.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Do you have any suggestions as to what we should avoid doing in the recovery, again based perhaps on other countries' experiences?

[Mark Carney]

I think the biggest thing to avoid is any stop-start policies. It is incredibly valuable to build a track record, to make it clear which technology paths, which energy paths, and which policy paths are going to be used. I will be very clear that I think the move that has been made on the carbon price and providing the prospect of having it legislated to 2030 is one of the most powerful incentives globally to provide support for investment and to encourage investment. Its power will grow with time. In addition, of course, the social aspect is being addressed through the rebates to Canadians.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

You've referenced, as an example, carbon capture, but we didn't talk much about that. I'd like to give you an opportunity, perhaps, to elaborate on your thoughts there.

[Mark Carney]

I would just underscore that carbon capture is important for several reasons. First, we've talked a bit about, if I can call it, “conventional” energy, oil and gas, in Canada. We will maximize the lifespan of that energy with carbon capture and storage. That's the first point.

Second, if we create the opportunity for a blue hydrogen industry, which can use our fossil fuel resources, natural gas and much of our existing energy infrastructure, pipelines and others, we need carbon capture and storage for that.

Third, we need it for many of our industrial processes.

Fourth, we have much of the expertise. We have the geology that can support it and we also have entrepreneurial companies in direct air capture. I think there are measures that are being taken in that regard. We need to make sure they're adequate. There are good, I understand, test examples out there, real projects that are out there. There's a new project that's being proposed by ATCO and Suncor on the hydrogen side, and I think that will show whether we have the adequate support in place to help build this industry, which will be essential.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Finally....

Oh dear. If I could quickly ask, Madam Chair...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Be very quick—10 seconds.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

For small and medium-sized enterprises, would credit incentives be probably the most important to get them on board?

[Mark Carney]

That's provided they're refundable, yes.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

That finishes our last round. I want to thank everyone for their time today and for going over a little bit on the time.

Thank you to the witnesses for their input, which will play a very important role in our study.

Your testimony will help us in drafting our report on the economic recovery from COVID-19. I want to thank you again for being with us today.

I'd like to thank the interpreters.

I know today's discussion was heated at times, so thank you for your hard work.

Thank you again, everyone, for being here.

With that, I call the meeting adjourned.