Industry Committee on Jan. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Minister and Mr. Perkins.

We'll now turn to MP Dong for six minutes.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you, Chair. Through you, first of all, I want to thank the minister and welcome him to this committee. Also, I'd like to welcome Deputy Commissioner Larkin and CFO Hazen from the RCMP.

Thank you for joining us today.

Since this is the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology, I want to ask my first question to you, Minister. Can you describe to the committee what type of product, technology or service is involved in this contract that we're discussing. I know you briefly touched on it in the French part of your opening remarks, but can you give a bit more detail on what kind of product was purchased for the RCMP?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I'm happy to highlight, in English for you, that the type of technology and equipment that was acquired and procured under the standing offer over the last number of years was in relation to our radio systems. The purpose of the technology is to help to reduce interference. The equipment itself is made up of tin and metal rods and cable. I will defer to my colleagues from the RCMP to explain how it is that those materials are able to reduce interference.

I also want to take a moment to underscore for you and for all members of this committee—because I know the question has been posed—that there was no way for this particular equipment to in any way interfere or make its way into the radio communications between RCMP members and various dispatch units. That is also protected by the standard, the two-way encryption standard, which is set by the Communications Security Establishment. That is one of the reasons the RCMP has assessed—and we are confident—that there was no breach of security in this process.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I'll go over to the deputy commissioner to ask for a bit more detail.

Does it have a computer chip, a wire? Is it electronically connected in some way or somehow? Please explain it to us.

[Deputy Commissioner Bryan Larkin, Deputy Commissioner, Specialized Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Through you, Mr. Chair, the equipment that is designed, manufactured and purchased from Sinclair Technologies, located in Aurora, Ontario, as described, is essentially made of a tin can that has a series of rods and some coaxial cables. It is designed to optimize our telecommunications and encrypted radio system—our push two-way talk system.

It essentially maximizes the frontline members who are using the radio system. It filters out other frequencies, so that the main frequency of the RCMP channel is not interfered with and there's no actual impact on our operations.

It is installed by RCMP radio technicians. It's installed on our towers and/or towers across our nation, coast to coast to coast. Again, it is a device, a piece of equipment, that has no access to any RCMP system. It's essentially a device that filters out other systems. It's commonly used in communication and broadcast equipment and no different from the towers that we use.

Again, there is no computer encryption within it. There are no systems within it. There is no manipulation within it. We actually control that piece of equipment.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Did the contract awarded to Sinclair Technologies give them any access to sensitive technology or information that could threaten Canada's national security?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

There is no access to any technology or any of our systems. Occasionally, from time to time, there may have been a requirement for an employee from Sinclair to attend to assist with installation or some process. Anybody who would access any of our sites or locations would go through our departmental security branch and all the security clearance, which is required.

However, generally speaking, these devices are procured and installed by RCMP technicians. They are evergreen. There is a cycle; they have a life cycle. We would be responsible for their replacement on our radio towers across our nation.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you.

Going back to the minister, does the government have any kind of security assessment screening for companies that apply to get these types of contracts? If so, what does the security screening entail?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We do, in fact. This is where my officials and the agencies within my portfolio work very closely with PSPC to apply a rigorous standard of security screening. That is something I have taken as an opportunity to reiterate, not only to the RCMP but to all of the agencies within my portfolio, to assure that we are raising the bar when it comes to potential threats from foreign interference. That's to make sure we are holding ourselves to the highest standards when it comes to procurement, especially as it relates to the critical infrastructure that is there to support public safety agencies, be it the RCMP or other agencies within my portfolio.

By doing so, we are maintaining the confidence of Canadians that our institutions, which are there to protect our public safety and our national security, are free from any foreign interference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Minister and Mr. Dong.

Mr. Lemire, go ahead for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mendicino, thank you for your efforts in French. I appreciate it because I know you do it with great interest.

I'd like to get back to the exchange you had with Mr. Dong. Sinclair Technologies will encrypt the data that is transmitted by these devices. However, what would prevent the company from having a sensor, decrypting this data, recording the conversations and transmitting them later?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for acknowledging my big efforts in French.

To answer your question, I have already explained that the technology that was acquired in this case does not allow for interference with our critical infrastructure owing to its limitations. In addition, the standards set by the Communications Security Establishment for the RCMP are very high.

After the RCMP review, which was conducted with great care, as this is an important issue for protecting all of our institutions involved in public safety, I am satisfied that there are no issues with this contract.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Since the person doing the encryption of the data can also decrypt it, are you entirely certain that conversations cannot be recorded?

I can well imagine that a walkie-talkie with a tape recorder can be used to record a message and transmit it anywhere, including to China.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That would not be possible in the context of this contract. I'm not concerned about that, because a review has been conducted and managed by the RCMP. However, my colleague, Deputy Commissioner Larkin, may wish to add a few words about that.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you, Minister.

The radio filtration system does not transmit communications. It's designed to filter out any interference. When frequencies are crossing over each other, it's designed to optimize the frequency that the front line or the operations of the RCMP are using.

What I can tell you, though, is that as a result of the information that came to light there are two reviews happening. There's a due diligence review, which is being done by our independent internal audit unit, and a technical review.

We have taken a Sinclair radio filtration device, which is a piece of equipment, off a radio tower in Ontario. Our team has deconstructed it to look at any opportunities, whether it was compromised and whether there were any sorts of devices. I can report back and say absolutely not. The device was the equipment that would be designed for use in a filtration system.

We're also doing other random spot audits across the country. The next one will be in British Columbia, and we can come back to the committee with that information in writing at a later time as we progress across the nation.

That was the technical review, but it is simply.... The easiest way to explain it is that there is no communication that goes through the radio filtration system. It's designed to push out other frequencies. The system that we use for radio communication is two-way, push-to-talk. It's totally encrypted and totally managed by our RCMP radio systems. As well, it meets the standards of the Canadian cybersecurity establishment, so we're confident in the technology that we are using to ensure national security for our organization.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Mendicino, a few weeks ago, the Federal Court of Australia ruled in favour of Motorola Solutions on its copyright and patent infringement claim against Hytera Communications Corporation Limited, following similar rulings in the United States and Germany.

Many countries do business with Hytera and are approached by Motorola Solutions representatives. Hytera is currently in over 80 countries around the world. In 2020, a ruling was handed down against the company in connection with the payment of royalties on Hytera's sales of digital mobile radio products. Since then, Motorola Solutions has been pursuing all possible avenues to enforce this ruling outside the U.S.

Have you had any discussions with Motorola Solutions, either before or after the suspension of the contract with Hytera?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I am not aware of this Australian ruling, but I can say that we in the federal government will always apply all the protocols and take all the steps we need to protect the institutions involved in public safety. That's what I explained in my opening remarks.

However, if—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have to interrupt you because I don't have much time left.

What I want to know is whether you have had any discussions with Motorola.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We stay in touch with industry, but each case is assessed on its own merits. That's our approach. The measures and protocols are there to protect our institutions. I am confident that our approach is the right one.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

So the answer is yes.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The process in place allows us to stay in touch with industry representatives who are seeking contracts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacGregor, go ahead.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, it's good to see you again, which is usually at public safety, but we'll do it here at the industry committee.

You mentioned that this contract is currently suspended. Is there a chance it will be reinstated if your review finds nothing wrong? What avenue is open to the company now?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The first thing I want to clarify is that not only has the RCMP suspended, but there is a suspension of all contracts across my portfolio—

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm looking at the future.