Industry Committee on Jan. 30th, 2023

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thanks, Joël.

First, Bryan, it's nice to see you. The last time we interacted was when you were in a different role, so I appreciate your being here today.

My core question is.... All we've heard today is that this particular contract, ultimately, didn't involve sensitive material, but the concern was driven initially by this concern. It's a fair concern that the RCMP was going to use equipment that could have potentially presented a public safety risk.

When it comes to the RCMP's procurement process and who it does business with, is there ever a moment when you compare our practices with, say, our American allies?

The Biden administration, just as an example, has taken strides, to my understanding, such that they won't do business with a list of certain organizations that don't meet minimum standards in relation to human rights. Do we take a similar approach here in Canada? Does the RCMP take a similar approach?

[Samantha Hazen]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

No. I'm not aware of a similar approach being taken by the RCMP in comparison to the procurement practices that are being undertaken across the Government of Canada and those being undertaken by the United States of America.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'll use an example. I know we're talking about Sinclair today, but there are other instances. I'll pick on Pegasus as a company.

They provide spyware to authoritarian regimes all around the world. That's problematic for all sorts of different reasons, I would argue. Certainly, it's a problem for its impacts on human rights, its impact on a fair press and its impact on civil society generally in terms of the ability to have strong journalism, strong accountability and pro-democracy advocacy, all things considered.

Would it make sense to you for the RCMP to revisit service procurement practices and, on the one hand, make sure that we're adjusting public safety in a way that the Conservatives were mentioning today? We could also, perhaps, make sure that we are putting rules in place such that we wouldn't do business, and we would have minimum standards in relation to companies that engage in practices like Pegasus's, for example?

[Samantha Hazen]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

I would say in this particular case, as previously mentioned, the RCMP followed all federal government procurement policies and regulations and applicable trade arrangements.

I would say decisions around changes that should be made to the overall procurement process as a whole probably should be directed to officials at PSPC.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sure, but if the you're the minister responsible for the RCMP and you are ultimately responsible for an agency that is doing procurement, or you are in a position, as you are, and you are responsible for procuring, yes, procurement can set certain minimum standards, but surely you can set certain minimum standards too in terms of the companies the RCMP is willing to do business with. It strikes me that we should ensure, at a minimum, that we are not purchasing equipment and not procuring from the worst human rights violators in some cases around the world, which is a low bar, I know, but that might be a minimum.

My last question is for either one of you. Has either of you ever spoken to Ron Deibert?

[Samantha Hazen]

The answer for me would be no.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Bryan.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

No, I have not.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Bryan, I don't know who the right person is to do this at the RCMP. It may be you or it may be someone else. I don't know where this will lead, but he runs the Citizen Lab at the U of T. It is world class. Other civil society organizations and other governments rely upon their work. It would be great if you or someone senior at the RCMP who carries this file around procurement could engage with Ron and his team. I think it would start a conversation that could go somewhere meaningful.

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we don't have enough time to go through a full third round, and, as you know, we're going into committee business afterward, so what I would suggest is that I open the floor to anyone who still has questions. I know Mr. Lemire still has some questions for the officials with us. Then if we end before the 5 p.m. time, we can suspend, or adjourn actually, and go in camera a little earlier to discuss the items we need to discuss.

I'll open the floor and start with you, Mr. Lemire, for your questions.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Larkin, are you already working with a new contractor or are you already using new equipment to replace Hytera's? If so, why didn't you choose it initially?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you.

Through you, Mr. Chair, not at this time. What I can tell you is that we're doing a technical review of the equipment. We are doing spot audits across the nation to ensure that none of the devices, the radio filtration equipment we are using, has been compromised in any sense.

We are doing the due diligence review. We look forward to our—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but there is no French interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

It has just been restored. You may continue, Mr. Larkin.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemire, did you hear any of that?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I heard everything you said, but since there was no interpretation, it is possible that people at home did not understand. So I ask that you start from the beginning.

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Through you, Mr. Chair, just to reiterate, we are doing, obviously, the technical review. We're still using equipment that has been procured across our nation. There is a significant amount of radio filtration equipment that is across our nation on radio towers. We are doing the technical review, which includes spot audits to ensure that none of the equipment is compromised. We also have the due diligence review, and we're looking forward to the internal recommendations around the use of that equipment as well as any recommendations that may come from this committee, which will determine the outcome.

I want to reiterate that there is no access to our encrypted radio communications. We continue to believe that this is low risk, although we look forward to the recommendations from committee as well as the internal findings of our internal audit.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Do you have a list of prohibited equipment, manufacturers or suppliers and, if so, which ones are on the list?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Through you, Mr. Chair, I don't have the list available, but our radio technicians and our radio experts would have that. We would be pleased to share that with this committee in writing at a different opportunity.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I imagine for example that Huawei could be part of this list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Would anyone else like to put questions to Ms. Hazen or Mr. Larkin while they are with us?

Mr. Perkins, go ahead.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You're in charge. What do you recommend and what will you be recommending internally so that there's more transparency into the process in the future with your future procurement of any of these state-owned enterprises that have caused a problem? The minister said that everything will be.... How will you improve that process so you're aware of it, since there doesn't seem to be a link between the communications and the security agencies?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Through you, Mr. Chair, thank you for that. I'll also turn it over to my colleague.

When we do procurement of technology, there are the subject matter experts who provide feedback. They work in partnership with our CFO's team around procurement. They also work with our chief security officer on setting those standards.

In this particular case, there's an assessment made. Obviously, we're looking forward to the due diligence review, what recommendations come forward and what conversations we have with other security and intelligence agencies, because we do work across the whole of government. That would ensure that national security is at the forefront.

Again, it's low risk, although there are always lessons learned in these processes. For example, the area that I lead includes technology. It's working more closely with procurement and enhancing discussions with departmental security—which is another area that I oversee—around ensuring that we maintain the trust and confidence in our systems and institutions such as our organization.

Ms. Hazen may have further conversation around that process.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I have a quick follow-up.

When that's done, would you be willing to share that? I know there are probably some security limits, but would you be willing to share the results of that review with this committee?

[D/Commr Bryan Larkin]

Through you, Mr. Chair, we'd be very pleased to share the results of our internal audit with this committee as well as the recommendations, absolutely.