Evidence of meeting #32 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was regime.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Susanne Tamás  Director, Office of Governmental Relations, Bahá'í Community of Canada
Payam Akhavan  Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You're actually over by about 30 seconds right now.

Ms. Grewal.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you both very much for your presentations.

The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps seems to be an essential part of the Iranian state, responsible for protecting Iran from outside threats as well as playing a key role in silencing dissent against the regime. Some countries, notably the United States, describe the IRGC as a terrorist organization. Canada, while tending to be fairly close to the United States in the recognition of terrorist organizations, does not.

Given the IRGC's relationship with and importance to the Iranian state, what do you think the effects of extending terrorist organization recognition to the IRGC would be to the Iranian civil and military officials?

Any one of you can answer this question.

1:40 p.m.

Director, Office of Governmental Relations, Bahá'í Community of Canada

Susanne Tamás

I yield to Payam.

Dr. Akhavan.

1:40 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

Dr. Payam Akhavan

I was waiting for that. Thank you.

To put it very briefly, over the past decade there has been a shift of power away from the clerical establishment toward the IRGC and the progressive militarization of the regime in Iran. The IRGC today controls significant elements of the economy, and that's why some of the sanctions are geared toward the IRGC's grip on power and its access to those sources of funds.

The IRGC, on the one hand, is really the enforcement of the regime, but on the other hand, the rank and file of the IRGC are not necessarily sympathetic to the regime. During the violent repression of the Green Movement the regime could not count on IRGC's soldiers to shoot people on the streets, which is why it had to hire these Basij plainclothes thugs to do the dirty work, and there were rumblings within the IRGC that we refused to shoot our people in the streets.

On the one hand, I think that the leadership of the IRGC has to be isolated. Whether the best way of doing that is through branding it as a terrorist organization or not is a matter of some discussion, but at the same time, one should also reach out to the rank and file of the IRGC and say that the international community's fight is not with them, but it is with their leaders, who are essentially in power to enjoy all the benefits and privileges, including corruption, which is why the rank and file has become alienated from its own leadership.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Some respectable democracies, specifically Turkey and Brazil, have maintained a policy of engagement with the Iranian regime to try to guide Iran's progress on their terms. Turkey and Brazil have most notably pledged to help Iran in pursuing civil nuclear power and by enriching uranium themselves, supposedly ensuring that Iran does not get the technological capacity to weaponize uranium.

Could you comment on the benefits or drawbacks of an engagement policy with respect to Iran's human rights record?

Again, any one of you can answer.

1:45 p.m.

Director, Office of Governmental Relations, Bahá'í Community of Canada

Susanne Tamás

I think dialogue is always a good thing. To consult together with other people to resolve differences is very important.

If we look, however, to Iran's record when it has been engaged in dialogue—I am thinking in particular of its dialogue with Europeans some five or six years ago. Iran used that dialogue as an opportunity to deflect criticism. It wouldn't allow certain things to be discussed, and we didn't see any improvement in the situation on the ground.

I'm saying there are two messages. One of them is that dialogue is good, but the other is that your partner in dialogue has to come to the table with some integrity and some demonstration of good faith that they are prepared to listen and to change.

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Chair, do I have any more time left?

1:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You have just used up five minutes, to the second, right now, as a matter of fact, so we will go to Professor Cotler.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

I'd like to commend both our witnesses for their appearance and their recommendations today.

My first question is for Payam Akhavan. Given the intensification of human rights violations in Iran, which include also the increase in the rate and range of executions—they're on an execution binge, and among those prospective executions, two imminent executions involve Iranian Canadians, Saeed Malekpour and Hamid Ghassemi-Shall.

Can any specific action be taken with respect to Iranian Canadians and their imminent threat of execution?

1:45 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

Dr. Payam Akhavan

Thank you. If I may, I'll call you Professor Cotler, my venerable colleague from McGill.

You have written about the execution binge. We are aware that Iran has the highest per capita rate of executions in the world. Its executions are second only to China's. Unfortunately, that is part of the overall climate of terror and fear, which includes public executions, which are reminiscent of pre-modern Europe and how sovereigns would basically instill fear in people.

Now, the case of Canadian Iranians is somewhat different because there is evidence to suggest that the Islamic Republic has specifically targeted dual nationals. One of the explanations is that it is paranoid about the links between Iranian civil society and Iranians in the diaspora. Another explanation, simply, is that dual nationals are being kept hostage. In effect, Mr. Ghassemi-Shall and Mr. Malekpour are being kept as bargaining chips by the Islamic Republic in order to put pressure on Canada.

My own impression is that Canada and other governments have to exact a cost rather than making concessions. There are various tools in the tool box that Canada can use to send the message that if either of these individuals is executed, there will be very serious consequences for Iran's interest. I would add that Canada has significant leverage because so many of the Islamic Republic's insiders have made Canada their home. This is one of the failings of our immigration policy, where we have condemned human rights abuses but look the other way so long as people are bringing hundreds of millions of dollars to invest in this country.

If the Canadian government, for example, were to say that the execution of these two Iranian Canadians would result in a forfeiture of assets belonging to individuals responsible for human rights abuses and so on and so forth, I think the Islamic Republic would change its posture. That's the language it understands.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you.

I have a question to Ms. Tamás at this point. You mentioned, of course, that May 14 will be the fourth anniversary of the imprisonment of the Bahá'í leadership. You've also referred to the intensification of the targeting of the Bahá'í in a variety of respects, whether it be the Bahá'í leadership, whether it be those involved in education, or whether it be the incitement and hate.

My question is this. Do you think this fourth anniversary might be an appropriate occasion—and I invite Professor Akhavan to respond as well—to have a take note debate, a kind of emergency debate in the House of Commons, about the plight of the Bahá'í in Iran, if not on the human rights situation as a whole?

1:50 p.m.

Director, Office of Governmental Relations, Bahá'í Community of Canada

Susanne Tamás

Yes, absolutely, I think it would be a wonderful thing to have a take note debate in the House. We understand that when those happen, when members of Parliament speak in the House, it's noted in Iran and it does have an impact. It not only cautions the Iranian government, but it encourages those who are sitting in prison that they're not sitting in the darkness, that people know about their situation.

Mr. Khanjani, one of the seven Bahá'í leaders, was 76 when he was arrested, which means that as of May 14, if he's not 80, he'll shortly be 80. His wife died while he was in prison. Although Iranian law allows prisoners compassionate leave to go to the bedside of an ailing spouse or to attend a funeral, he was allowed neither.

There's a gratuitous level of cruelty that accompanies the persecution of the Bahá'ís in Iran, and I think it would be very timely if the Canadian Parliament would speak to this issue.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Professor Akhavan, do you wish to add anything?

1:50 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

Dr. Payam Akhavan

No. I would agree. The more we shine the spotlight on this issue, the better it will be.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

That's the kind of response we're looking for, because we have run out of time again.

I'm going to Wai Young, please.

1:50 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

Thank you so much for being here, both of you.

I want to just keep my comments brief, in the interest of time and to give you more time to answer.

Would you think that the average citizen in Iran, then, is more aware of the reality of the regime now than before the green spring?

1:50 p.m.

Director, Office of Governmental Relations, Bahá'í Community of Canada

Susanne Tamás

Dr. Akhavan.

1:50 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

Dr. Payam Akhavan

Most definitely, yes. I can tell you an anecdote from a student of mine at McGill, a graduate student, who was a very devout believer in the regime and who questioned many of the things I would tell her about what happens in Evin prison and Iran's torture chambers. She came to me after being in the streets, saying she saw with her own eyes the Basij thugs beat an old woman to death.

What happened in June 2009 is that all of the horrors and abuses that for 30 years took place behind closed doors came out into the open, and the Iranian public saw with its own eyes the regime shooting and stabbing people simply because they wanted the right to have their vote counted.

The legitimacy of the regime cannot be recovered again, which is why a regime with all the oil wealth and weapons at its disposable is so desperate to control the flow of information through the Internet and through satellite television.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

I have a follow-up question. If Canada did undertake to identify the entire IRGC as a terrorist entity, what do you think, in your view, would be the impact on Iran and on its people?

1:55 p.m.

Professor, Faculty of Law, McGill University, As an Individual

Dr. Payam Akhavan

It would be a further means of isolating the regime. But what I believe would be even more effective are targeted sanctions. The European Union and the United States have, since 2009, prepared lists of specific officials who are not allowed to enter the European Union or the United States, and whose assets would be frozen. That is an even more powerful message that individuals will have to pay the price, that even if they're in power today, there is a blacklist out there that identifies them and one day they may face justice.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

How much more time do I have, Mr. Chair?

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Two and a half minutes.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

I've been very effective.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You have been. Everybody says that about you.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC

Thank you very much.

Do you have any other suggestions beyond the targeted sanctions that you would like to spend some time sharing with us?