Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 27th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you. Now I'm going to give the floor to MP Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity.

Thank you for being here today, and thank you to Mr. Abbott as well.

One of the things that's interesting about the situation—and we've had this elsewhere in the world—is succession in the ruling family. Essentially that's what we have here. I know that many witnesses have talked about logging, as you have, but I'm wondering whether the family has connections in business. Heroin-smuggling, I believe, is a potential part of the trade, and there are land-grab issues as well. Is there any feeling that the family is preparing for succession so that in effect a member of the ruling class would be the next leader, following the displacement of Hun Sen?

[Mu Sochua]

As far as we know today, Mr. Hun Sen has not prepared a successor. He wants to remain in power for the next 10 years. However, the people of Cambodia will not allow him to stay for another term if they have the freedom to choose the leader they want. We are certain.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You noted that they're involved in logging. I guess that's a particularly important issue, not only because of the vast amount of wealth that's taken from the population but also because of the topography changes that occur if the logging is not done properly. That could undermine the future of Cambodia quite significantly. Many nations suffer for past practices in logging that eventually affect their agriculture and environmental conditions and leave a legacy that is not reversible.

How significant is logging right now? Is it continuing to expand, or is it keeping a steady pace of destruction right now? Are you at a third? Do you have a timeline for when that reaches a half?

[Mu Sochua]

It continues every day under the eyes of the law officers who are supposed to protect our forests. There are good law officers and good environmentalists, and there are international organizations working in Cambodia right now, but they cannot confront, they cannot practise when the Ministry of Defence itself is behind the illegal logging. The family of the Prime Minister and these big tycoons are behind this massive illegal logging, and the dams that are being built today in Cambodia under the name of good development for the people of Cambodia actually do log illegally. These big plantations log illegally through these policies of the government, which are economic land concessions. There are millions of hectares of land, and 85% of our people are rural poor. Our farmers have lost their land. There are over two million migrant workers who are Cambodians because they lost their land. They are so much in debt that they have to go to Thailand and to other countries in the region as unskilled workers. There are two million migrant workers.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

One of the potential pressure points you've noted is what other nations are doing, including the U.S. Congress. I'm one of the vice-chairs of the Canada-U.S. Inter-Parliamentary Association and I know that congressional action is sometimes rather assertive and helps lead the path to some changes.

We have over here a bit of a different situation. You're suggesting maybe freezing of diplomats' visitations. One of the things that we've done as a country is that sometimes our crown corporations are also doing business in government agencies. Perhaps that might be a way to peel back. I know most recently Canada has been criticized for loaning money from the EDC to the Gupta brothers for a private luxury jet. I notice, even as you're talking here, the Canadian trade commissioner service is actively promoting “uncovering the surprises of Cambodia” and welcoming investment through Canadian connections.

Say, for example, we were able to draw back a Canadian trade commission office that opened up in early 2015 that is actively being promoted right now, or at least advance the notion that it could potentially close or be put in a state of abeyance for the moment. Would it be helpful to make sure that the Government of Canada and our crown corporations, and also our departments, are not saying one thing in the political realm of concern while having our departments do something different on the ground floor?

[Mu Sochua]

Exactly, sir. That's why we're asking to have a coordinated effort to put forward a very strong message to Mr. Hun Sen. These sanctions, these pressures, come from the diplomatic sanctions as well as economic sanctions, and especially through potential foreign inventors and Canadian investors going to Cambodia to make it very clear that your money is not safe. You are contributing to the disaster, to the death of Cambodia as far as democracy is concerned. It is not ethical to be in business with a country where human rights...where the workers who are producing your garments live in very difficult conditions under abusive laws that do not allow trade unions to function freely. If you are part of that industry, you should get out.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

It's interesting, because the trade commission posting under the Government of Canada has quite a different picture painted about investing in Cambodia. Maybe that's one of the first things that can be looked at.

Do I have time, Mr. Chair, for a quick question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

It's a quick question.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Abbott, in your opinion, does Japan play a key role or a potential key role of being a negotiator in this process? Would you see that as viable?

[Kingsley Abbott]

Yes, I think Japan has been seen already as a very important player regionally and also within Cambodia. One thing that hasn't been said, but it's an important dynamic, is the increasing assertiveness of China in Southeast Asia at the moment, particularly in Cambodia and Vietnam. Speaking plainly, some analysts say that this is a dynamic that's important to Japan and one that it's keeping a close eye upon.

However, Japan also has, I think, not yet stepped up to the plate in terms of taking an assertive and principled stand on the situation in Cambodia. For example, when the European Union and the U.S. pulled out of supporting the upcoming elections, Japan stayed the course. At the last Human Rights Council, Japan led a Human Rights Council resolution along with many other states, but under its direction, I think it was perhaps not as strong as it could have been.

That's in part why we saw what Mu Sochua referred to, a joint statement that was issued at this Human Rights Council just a few days ago by 45 states, which this time was led by New Zealand. It doesn't have the same status as a resolution, but as a 45-state statement, it was much stronger. It's notable that Japan and none of the other ASEAN states are signatories to it. I think there needs to be also more pressure placed on leadership, not only in Japan but also within ASEAN, where there may be also a shared interest in providing a counterbalance to that more assertive China that we are witnessing, in part because of the waning influence in some respects of Europe, the U.S., and other powers in Southeast Asia.

To answer the question from before, if you were to look at allies you might have currently with respect to such an initiative that you might be considering, you only need to look at the signatories, all 45 of them, to that Human Rights Council statement just a few days ago.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much, Mr. Abbott.

Welcome to the subcommittee, Mr. Masse. It's good to have you here.

We're now going to move to MP Khalid and then to MP Tabbara, and we'll finish off with MP Sweet.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming in and presenting your testimony on this very important issue before our subcommittee.

I know, Ms. Sochua, that you touched briefly on what Canada can do to assist the situation. You mentioned perhaps a delegation coming into Cambodia, but what other measures do you think Canada can take to really assist the flourishing of democracy within Cambodia?

[Mu Sochua]

Canada can join other countries that have already applied targeted sanctions, such as visa sanctions on the high-ranking officials of the Government of Cambodia. These people are coming to Canada. We know it for sure. It is symbolic. It gives to Mr. Hun Sen a very strong message, again, that the road for him is not open unless he can demonstrate that he wants to uphold, as Canada does, the principle of democracy. That's number one.

Number two is, again, if it has to be, economic sanctions. We do not want to see that, but if it has to be, then it has to be. Mr. Hun Sen will listen to and ignore any statement that is made unless Canada takes very strong, strict measures, and immediately, because we have only four months to go. In fact, by the end of April all parties that want to contest in the next election should file with the National Election Committee. We actually don't have four months; we have four weeks.

Still, it doesn't mean that time is up. If there is political will, a political solution, we can find a solution. The election day can be pushed back. At the end of the day, what the Cambodian people need to have is the freedom to vote on election day and vote for the party they want to vote for. That means a free and fair election, and exactly like any government, Canada cannot just give a double message. On one hand, you condemn what is happening in Cambodia; on the other hand, you do business with Cambodia. That is giving Mr. Hun Sen a free ride. It has to stop.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

I'll give the rest of the time to MP Tabbara.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you. I'll be brief because my time is short.

The opposition advocated extending the timeline for the election, pushing it further back maybe into the fall, maybe later in September or October. Mr. Sen has cancelled that.

In Cambodia, has there been a push to prolong this election?

[Mu Sochua]

As of today, Mr. Hun Sen is determined to have the elections conducted on July 29, 2018. He repeated it the day before yesterday and today because he is negotiating, actually, with the international community. It is his tactic. He is a great negotiator.

However, what the international community, including Canada, needs to say to Mr. Hun Sen is “We are together, 45 countries; you may have China, but we stand with the people of Cambodia for democracy.” If he wants to go ahead with the election on July 29, 2018, he will go ahead, but the 45 countries and beyond should say to Mr. Hun Sen, right now, that the next government run by Mr. Hun Sen—if he wins without the opposition CNRP taking part in the next election—born from that kind of election will not be recognized.

We do not want an illegal government. We want a legal government. We want democracy, and we want to go back so that we can put Cambodia back on track. We have no more time to lose.

If Mr. Hun Sen continues to take Cambodia down the road to more deterioration of human rights, then at the end of the day, the people of Cambodia will lose. The people have suffered enough, and they want change, and that's what the international community needs to say to Mr. Hun Sen. You stand with the people of Cambodia who want to have change, but through free and fair elections, without violence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you.

We have time for one short question from MP Sweet before we wrap up.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be as brief as possible.

We've talked about the judiciary and law enforcement, the political machine there. I take it that the media aren't free either, and that pressure has been put on the media as well.

One of the compelling questions that comes to my mind is that Cambodia has been through so much—for instance, the Cambodian genocide. The trials just ended years ago. The Khmer Rouge that was convicted of crimes against humanity is fresh in everybody's mind.

Are people marching in the streets against Hun Sen? Is there a visible uprising that's happening in civil society on the ground in Cambodia, so that the message is being sent to the current administration?

[Mu Sochua]

Civil rights and civil liberties in Cambodia are totally dead. Any protest will be crushed by the so-called “third hand” of Mr. Hun Sen. He calls it the “third hand”, which actually means the militia, which means the hired security guards. We have gone through so much.

If they can physically assault a member of Parliament in front of the parliament building, they can do anything they want. Also, I need to say that the members of Mr. Hun Sen's bodyguards got a very short prison sentence. After that, they were promoted in the security force.

Our people want protests, but they are waiting for the opposition, the CNRP, to say when. We don't want to have protests just to have protests. We want peaceful resolutions. At the end of the day, though, we may not be able to ask the people to wait. The people will go out in the streets. That will be chaos, and that's the chaos Cambodia cannot afford to have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank Mr. Abbott and Mu Sochua and Kong Sophea for being here, as well as all the other members of the community who came to join us from Toronto, Montreal, and other places.

[An hon. member]

London.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

And London, as my colleague points out.

We were quite seized with this. This was very important testimony for us to hear. I want to thank you all, especially you, Madam Sochua, for flying in from New Zealand for this. We really appreciate it, and we'll certainly be taking this up amongst committee members.

Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.