Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 24th, 2018

[Tshala Kalambay]

I would like to add a few words.

Right now, we are using the example of the population of Kasai, where many people have fled from their villages. We are talking about thousands of men, women and children walking on the streets, far from their village. To that is added malnutrition. Children are dying owing to a lack of food, care and appropriate places to stay. That humanitarian aspect is something Canada can bring—because it is good at that—to help those women, children and men who are driven from their village by all those wars.

In Kasai, more than 5,000 people are currently homeless because of wars that are ravaging their villages. In the community, many people have set up organizations to help those men, women and children. Canada has many ways to bring its humanitarian aid directly to the population, without going through the Congolese government. We have noted on a number of occasions that, when aid goes through that government, it never makes it to the people who desperately need it. There are a number of effective organizations in the Congolese diaspora, which could transfer that aid to the right place.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to Mr. Fragiskatos for five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

We've examined a number of conflicts in which natural resources might play a negative effect, in fact. The resource curse has been mentioned, when we look at various conflicts in the world. The Congo has $24 trillion in unexploited natural mineral resources, in diamonds, zinc, gold, and cobalt. Everybody in this room has a bit of cobalt in their phone.

Can you speak to this issue, the role that natural resources have played in, it would seem, perpetuating conflict? If it is not in perpetuating conflict, frame it as you wish, but it seems that natural resources have not had a positive effect on the country's development and have fed into the conflict.

[Aimé M. Kabuya]

Thank you for your question.

During my introduction, I talked about the fact that the Congolese crisis is humanitarian, but it is first and foremost economic. Most of the conflict zones are in areas with coltan, copper, cobalt and gold, and they are mainly located in the east, such as in Katanga, North Kivu, South Kivu, Maniema, and so on.

The automotive industry's current development of electric vehicles and the fact that cellphone batteries can last all day is no doubt thanks to the contribution of strategic materials such as copper, cobalt and coltan. Those are found in the devices we use.

You talked about a curse, but I don't believe in that. I rather think that we should be talking about good governance. Canada has raw materials, but there have never been any conflict areas where raw materials are mined in Canada, in the United States or elsewhere. Why are there always conflict zones in Africa? It is because people want to get their hands on raw materials. Canada is recognized globally as a country of mines.

For example, Canada can use its influence to impose a code of conduct when Canadian companies are extracting raw materials. The mines that are presented as dangerous can play a positive role, that of changing the economic situation of those who live in mined areas. Once again, that could increase the performance of Canadian companies, to mention only those, when raw materials are extracted and used.

I think that we have everything to gain by promoting good governance, democratic values and all the established legal rules. So, short of managing conflicts, it will be possible to manage the beneficial economic impacts for everyone—for Canada, the Congo and the rest of the world.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Two minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I was going to ask you a question about regional influence, but that is a complicated one—the influence of Rwanda, Tanzania, Uganda, and Burundi. Instead I'll ask you a question about future prospects and the extent to which you see something of a space for civil society, whether it's for human rights organizations or an opposition that is intent on implementing meaningful democratic reform and a meaningful democratic transition away from what we are currently seeing from the Kabila government.

Is there any hope for this? Do you see any signs of or any potential for it?

[Tshala Kalambay]

I would say so. According to everything that is currently happening in the Congo—such as the fact that civil society and the opposition political parties have gotten together, as Mr. Kabuya mentioned earlier—they want change. They are working together to achieve that change.

The major problem they are facing is the government's outside support, which is standing in their way. We need help from the outside in the form of strong support for the opposition and for civil society. That would ensure that everything is done properly, whether we are talking about elections or aspects related to social or political life. If things unfold that way—in other words, if outside governments help civil societies and the opposition—everything should work out for the best in the Congo going forward.

[Aimé M. Kabuya]

In that regard, Canada created, at parliamentary level....

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We'll have to move on to the next questioner. I'm sorry. We ran out of time.

Thank you very much. Time is always our enemy in committees, and I apologize for that.

Mr. Anderson, you have the floor for five minutes.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In other studies that we've done, we've found that the role of the diaspora and the ability of the diaspora to be able to unite makes a difference in terms of solutions to many of these conflicts. How united is the Congolese diaspora in Canada and around the world in trying to see this come to an end?

You mentioned that the war is primarily economic. Typically, that plays a huge role if people have left the country and have economic interests in the country. I'm just wondering if you can talk to that. It may be a more sensitive question than what you want to address. I don't know. I'm just interested in that because I think a solution can often come from outside, from people who have ties to their countries.

[Aimé M. Kabuya]

If you read Western Union's report, every year, an amount equivalent to $10 billion is sent by the Congolese diaspora to family members. I can even tell you that, if there were no Congolese in the diaspora, the current situation in the Congo would be much worse because the Congolese government does not support anything.

I went to the Congo twice last year. I can tell you that hospitals lack everything. They have no resources. People must pay even for pills for a headache. Often, when the Congolese on the ground are facing various problems—be they social, humanitarian, economic or other in nature—the diaspora gets involved to provide funding.

As for unity in the diaspora, I must tell you that the Congolese people are independently and individually leaving the Congo to seek out a better life here, in Canada, and around the world. So we come with diverging objectives, of course, but we manage to get organized. Humanitarian work is a fairly complex field. I have worked in the francophone community here, in Ontario, at the AFO, the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario, at the ACFO, the Association canadienne française de l'Ontario, and the UP-MREF, the Union provinciale des minorités raciales ethnoculturelles francophone. You could not find a single converging voice, simply because people have various ways of seeing things and different points of view.

To come back to the Congolese community, we have created at the federal level a round table called the Table de concertation des présidents de la communauté congolaise du Canada. Through that round table, we share converging ideas to see to what extent we can push the impetus toward projects that can help the Congolese get together and work even harder to provide assistance. We first must contribute to Canada's effort, since we are in Canada, and also create a dynamism we can use to help Canada benefit from Congolese people's contribution, as well. Nowadays, the Congolese community consists of doctors, engineers, economists, and the list goes on.

We have an ambitious project to create a Congolese community centre to integrate all the projects that could lead to what you are calling for—unity.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I want to come back to a question that Ms. Khalid asked you earlier about the presidential elections and the elections being potentially held in December. Do you anticipate that they will go ahead? What I would like to ask you is how Canada in particular can help to make sure that the elections do go ahead and that there's a peaceful transfer of power. What can we do to contribute? How can we make this happen so that it is carried out in a proper fashion?

Is it going to be put off? I see there are some areas where they don't think they can be ready for an election in 2018-19. I'm just wondering if you can pull this off. Can we pull this off? How can Canada help to do that?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

There is time for a brief answer, please, as brief as possible.

[Aimé M. Kabuya]

The only thing Canada can do is send observers who would be on site and work with the Independent National Electoral Commission, CENI, to ensure that there really is transparency in the counting of votes and publishing of the results and to ensure that Mr. Kabila does not run for president because he has used up his two mandates. In compliance with the Congolese constitution, he is not entitled to a third mandate. In addition, of course, voting machines should no longer be used.

With all that, we would have an 80% chance of a fair and transparent election.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Next is Mr. Tabbara.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming here. I apologize that I was a little bit late. I had something else to do, so I didn't hear all of your testimony at the beginning.

In terms of the ongoing conflict and both wars that we've seen in the DRC, impunity continues to play a major role, and those who have committed atrocities aren't held accountable. Have there been any NGOs or international organizations that have helped build strong judicial institutions? Has there been any work to bring those to account? Has there been any progress on building these strong state institutions?

[Tshala Kalambay]

I would say that, with the current government, the issue of judicial institutions is very difficult to resolve because the government is corrupt and that corruption is everywhere. It is difficult to see people who are part of the government act with impunity or have recourse to police forces, even the population, to commit atrocities. Those people will never be punished for their actions because they are subject to authority and that authority is the government. Even members of judicial committees are under government authority. So they cannot have those individuals tried and sentenced for their actions. It is very difficult.

That issue in the Congo cannot be resolved as long as the current government is in power.

[Aimé M. Kabuya]

I would like to add that the majority of generals are known, and their names are in reports published by the UN. Another report was produced after the meeting of September 26, in Geneva. Partners of the Congo were invited to discuss solutions that could lead to a better future, which is related to your concern. They wrote a report on that. If you read it quickly, you will understand that, if an election was held and there was a shift within the Congolese government, many partners of the Congo, including Canada, could work with that new government to implement policies and approaches in line with good governance. However, it is often a regret, when these kinds of resolutions are implemented, not to see them applied.

Most of those who work with Mr. Kabila are under sanctions. They cannot obtain a visa. We have heard about frozen assets in the west. If Canada were to help exert pressure, those people would feel really isolated and would not have any choice but to support transparent elections for the population.

We stress that Canada must play the role of observer. There were Canadian observers in 2006 and 2011. Unfortunately, their numbers were low in 2011. We think that, if Canada could mobilize as many observers as possible, we would be able to ensure a truly transparent election. In addition, if the results were revealed transparently, that would appease the population, and it would then be possible to work with the newly elected leaders.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We have enough time. If you have a question, feel free to ask it, Ms. Ng.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I'm going to defer to my colleague, because I have to head to the House a little early today.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I'll share that time with Mr. Tabbara.

You mentioned Canada and the potential for Canadian help, and Canada has been assisting recently, obviously, and in years past. I wonder if you could touch on this point of western help. Often western states have been a cause of the problem.

Canada is not Belgium, but I think Canadians want to be assured by the Congolese, and I think you're uniquely placed to answer this question. As members of the diaspora, you have one foot in Canada and one foot in your home country. Is there an appetite, an interest, among those on the ground and the diaspora here in Canada and beyond, to open the door to western assistance? Would there be an antipathy to that, or is that something that would interest the people of the Congo? Leave aside the political leadership.

[Aimé M. Kabuya]

I'll give you an example from my own life.

In 2014, 2015, and 2016, I spent a lot of time in the Congo. One of the reasons we went there was precisely to set up organizations that would provide the structural benefits, like those Canada is hoping to see. For instance, we created a centre for entrepreneurship to help young people understand what owning a business is all about, how to run a business, which governance policy to adopt for business success, and so forth. The centre also teaches them about interacting with the government in relation to the reforms.

I think Canada has a lot to gain from working with native Congolese who are active in Canada at the community level. I'm going to let you in on a secret: I'm running for a national seat. One of the reasons we now want to become involved in Congolese politics is our experience in a culture of democracy. We have realized how a government should work. We recognize that a government should be accountable to the people, and we understand the role elected government representatives should play in serving the electorate.

I think Canada has a lot to gain from working with Congolese nationals and others who have become Canadian citizens and understand Canada's approach to government. Relying on its approach, Canada can work directly with Congolese populations. Belgium set up Schengen house to manage visa applications, study permits, and so forth.

I think Canada can follow suit and work with us. The COCOT, for example, has quite a good governance structure, having adopted sound governance policies. It has bylaws and rules in place, and elects its leadership on an annual basis. We are endeavouring not just to help the diaspora in Canada, but also to make things easier for them by lightening their load—that load being regularly sending home the little money they earn here. In that sense, we aren't really able to get ahead and enjoy the benefits of living in Canada.

The government has many projects involving the co-operation and immigration departments, among others. If you'd like, we could provide you with information on our programs so that, together, we could determine how you could extend support and work with us. We know what Canada hopes to accomplish through its humanitarian missions. Every Congolese person living in Canada or elsewhere knows how this support could take shape. I would say we are very receptive.

[Tshala Kalambay]

I'd just like to add something, if I may.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I don't mean to interrupt you, but that was a very fulsome answer. I would love to hear what you have to say, Madam Kalambay, but we only have five minutes and Mr. Tabbara may have a question.