Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 16th, 2018

[Evelyn Puxley]

Well, some of the information we have comes from people who are Canadians who have recently been in China, and these would include people who are doing business there.

The challenge, as I mentioned, in Xinjiang is, however, that very few foreigners are still in Xinjiang. Indeed, I think we will want to continue to work with UN agencies in particular to try to get some of the UN special representatives into Xinjiang to see the situation on the ground. We continue to work with like-minded and non-traditional partners to garner information.

As I mentioned, we will have in November the universal periodic review of China in Geneva. That will be an opportunity for us not only to raise this issue but for China subsequently to respond. We expect there will be other countries raising our concerns.

I think it's also fair to say, as you would have gathered from my opening statement, that we rely to some extent on the reports of credible non-governmental organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Those are only two that come to mind.

Yes, we're seeking information from a number of sources, but of course, China is the responsible state and should be—as we have asked—more transparent about what is occurring there.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are you aware of any Uighurs who have been or are in a situation in which they could be deported back to China?

[Evelyn Puxley]

Do you mean from Canada?

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

From Canada; or are you aware of a situation anywhere else in the world, let's just say, about this issue at large, since it is so recent, as you pointed out? You may not be aware of something specific here, but if you are, what do you know?

[Evelyn Puxley]

Well, I can't speak to individual cases in Canada.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Exactly.

[Evelyn Puxley]

As I think I mentioned in response to one of your colleagues, we're working very closely with IRCC and CBSA to make sure that they're aware of the recent change in the situation in China.

With regard to other countries, there have been a number of very high-profile what they call “refoulements” from countries in which Uighurs were seeking refugee status, for example, Thailand, Malaysia and Turkey. That situation dates from about 2015 to 2016. Various governments have taken various measures. In the case of Thailand, they sent a rather large group back to China. It's complicated in Thailand, because Thailand isn't a signatory to the convention on refugees.

But yes, a number of countries have deported Uighurs back to China, something that I think is probably very problematic under the current situation in the country.

[The Chair]

That is the time. We'll move on to the second round.

To start it, for five minutes we have Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you for being here. I apologize at the outset: I missed your presentation. I was in another committee; we were reviewing legislation. I'm quite interested in your statement, which I've read here, and your comments subsequently.

You mentioned, Ms. Puxley, the word “credibility” a moment ago. I'd like to go back to that, if I could. There are competing claims being made.

What standard are we using when it comes to assessing claims? How do we define credible claims? I ask this just out of interest, because I certainly don't have an answer. It's a very difficult thing to do.

[Evelyn Puxley]

That's a difficult question to answer I think.

Obviously, we take very seriously the reports that we get from Canadian diplomats who've been able to visit. I think I've described the recent UN reports as credible, based on the number of people they would have interviewed and the wide variety of sources.

I think we are always interested in assessing some of the information that comes to us, such as your colleague mentioned—I don't know if you were here—on reports of special organ harvesting stations set up in Kashgar. Frankly, that was news to me, and we will definitely look into it.

As I said, the gold standard is usually the UN reports because of the wide variety of sources that they base their information on. I think it's in all of our interest to make sure that the UN representatives have access to Xinjiang so that there will be reports that are seen to be credible and independently based.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Canada has expressed concern right here, at meetings, for example, hosted by the U.S. State Department, with a special focus on religious freedom.

Can you delve into that a little more? We're working with, it would seem in this case, the United States and other democracies to raise this concern. I know that Prime Minister Trudeau put concerns forward a few weeks ago.

[Evelyn Puxley]

Yes.

I think the U.S. is obviously a key partner. I think the U.S. doesn't have any better access to Xinjiang or to other independent reports than Canada, but clearly they're a key partner. They have, as you know, paid particular attention to issues of religious freedom.

Frankly, we are working with a number of partners both in Europe and in the region. Certainly we've been raising this issue with China for some months now, with a view to getting information from China as to what is actually going on in Xinjiang. That's given the reports, not only in the press but also the credible UN report, that there is a serious problem there in terms of mass detentions.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Is there a sentiment that clearly exists among Uighurs in terms of their political desires? Are Uighur activists pushing for political autonomy? Would cultural protections minus political autonomy be fine? Is there a current of thought that is advocating for independence?

It seems like a bit of a fractured sort of—I can't even say the word “movement”—set of priorities among Uighur activists.

Can you delve into that at all and offer any commentary on that?

[Evelyn Puxley]

At this point, I think I would say that Uighur communities, like most, are varied in their political views and religious adherence. It spans the spectrum from some activists who would like to see an independent state, to those who simply find it very difficult when elements of their religious and cultural traditions are not respected.

It's a very wide spectrum, I think is the best way of answering your question. It's not a monolithic community, either outside of China or inside Xinjiang.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

No, certainly not; there are never any monoliths. I think it's important to put those nuances on the table for our understanding.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair]

Now we're on to Mr. Anderson, for five minutes.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

In terms of the government's response to this issue, some of our neighbouring congressmen have called for sanctions on the appropriate Chinese officials.

Has there been any word from the Canadian government on whether or not they think that's an appropriate response?

[Evelyn Puxley]

I think we would be looking at a wide variety of options as the situation develops.

At this point, I wouldn't want to indicate what particular option we might recommend to the minister or the government. We have some of the same measures available to us as in the United States, but I wouldn't want to be drawn on what particular action we might take—sanctions or any other particular action—at the moment.

I think our focus is very much on working multilaterally and bilaterally to raise these issues, and hopefully to see the situation change.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

You just used the words “as the situation develops”, but we have massive local repression; the establishment of a DNA data bank; a million plus people in concentration camps; reports of organ harvesting; invasion of personal dwellings with 24-hour video surveillance and officials placed in their homes during religious festivals; kidnapping and demanded deportations; the disappearance of citizens and threats to their families; and complete travel restrictions on an entire community.

Does the Government of Canada then see the sum total of this as some sort of an anomaly or do they see this as a systemic issue?

[Evelyn Puxley]

I think in my opening remarks I mentioned that we are very concerned by the extent of the mass detentions for whatever purpose—re-education or anything else—in Xinjiang. I think the situation in Xinjiang against the background of what has happened elsewhere in China, including in Tibet with regard to Falun Gong, etc., and Christian communities, is quite different. We've never seen credible reports of such vast numbers being detained.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Actually, in the past they were executed by the same government, but that's another issue.

[Evelyn Puxley]

I think I would go back to what I said about the need to have not just reports, but to make sure, to the extent that we can, that those reports are verified and credible. For that, to some extent, we do rely on UN agencies.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Are you suggesting there's some doubt as to the accuracy of the reports?

[Evelyn Puxley]

You listed a long number of reports, if I may say, sir. Some of them actually I think we would agree are credible, and some of them bear additional scrutiny.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Can you tell me which ones would bear additional scrutiny then? Local repression? DNA data bank? Do you know that exists?