Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 16th, 2018

[Evelyn Puxley]

I referred to that in my opening statement.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

People in concentration camps: do you know that exists?

[Evelyn Puxley]

We are well aware of the fact that thousands of people have been detained, whether it's re-education camps or simply detained or thrown into prison—

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay, so thousands.... It's interesting. We've got numbers between a million and three million. You say thousands.

Reports of organ harvesting: do you find them valid?

[Evelyn Puxley]

I referred to that in my opening statement. I think the information we have to hand—and I'm well aware of Mr. Kilgour's and other people's work on this before—is that organ harvesting, particularly with regard to Xinjiang and with regard to Falun Gong, has decreased over the last few years.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay.

Are you aware of the invasion of personal dwellings, especially during Ramadan?

[Evelyn Puxley]

We are aware of activities like that which certainly impinge, and particularly during Ramadan, on the ability of residents and citizens of China to practise their faith.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

I understand that you don't have authority in this area, but to talk about that sort of thing being an impingement on people's rights is I think doing a disservice to what's happening there.

You talked about the kidnapping, the deportations and the disappearance of citizens, I think, so these things are not, in my opinion, in any way left to doubt. They're happening to some extent.

I'm wondering how contrary to international norms the Chinese government has to be in order to affect what you called a “multi-faceted” priority relationship based “on trust and mutual benefit”. At what point and how bad does a country have to be before we say that we're just not interested in being involved with their market?

[Evelyn Puxley]

Perhaps I could go back to what I said at the beginning, and that was that there has been an increase in information coming out in the last six to eight months as to what is happening. Not all of that information can be verified. I would cite the figure that you cited: between one million and three million have been detained. As I said, I think the three million, while it has been reported in the press, is not something that I'm in a position to confirm at this point.

In terms of the Canadian government response, I think it's fair to say that we have raised this issue both in multilateral and in bilateral contexts in a way that certainly makes clear our view that this is an extremely serious situation. In terms of what we do next, when we have more information, as I said, that is something that we will.... As I say, I'm not in a position to say what measures we might be prepared to take in the future.

[The Chair]

That is your time, unfortunately.

We'll go to Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Puxley, for your testimony and for answering questions from colleagues today.

In 1949 the region where the Uighurs are situated in Xinjiang was for a very short time annexed as East Turkestan. It became its own state but it was very short-lived. Since that time, and then its rejoining of China, have these violations of minorities, or just the ethnic populations in that region, continued from that time to now, slowly escalating?

[Evelyn Puxley]

I wouldn't speak to the many decades since 1949. I think I'd have to get back to you on that.

As I think I've made clear today, we are concerned about what seems to have been a deteriorating situation over the last 16 to 18 months, particularly over the last few months. I think that's what our focus is at the moment. It's not, frankly, what might have happened in 1949. That's obviously relevant, but our focus at the moment is trying to address the situation that we consider extremely serious in Xinjiang at the moment.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

One of the concerns we heard about is the inability of people to bring out first-hand recounting or testimony. A number of people have indicated that they've deleted the popular app called WeChat in China, because it is heavily monitored, in order to protect themselves.

How do we, not just a country like Canada but the United Nations and all international organizations, get around that in order to be able to get these first-hand testimonies? How are we collecting evidence about what's going on right now?

[Evelyn Puxley]

As I think I might have mentioned, there are various sources. One is travel by Canadian diplomats and other diplomats to the region and sharing the information that we develop. One is from those people who've managed to get out and seek refugee status in the region, whether it's Southeast Asia or Turkey; in some cases, they've managed to come to Canada.

As I mentioned, the UN does have sources of information from a wide variety of people on the basis that their information will be held in confidence. I think you pointed to a real difficulty given the difficulty of both journalists and diplomats to access Xinjiang. Yes, we are certainly aware of the fact that some residents are so concerned about the extent of surveillance that they are not using the apps they would have had on their private cellphones out of concern that this will put them and their families at risk.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have one last question. A witness who came to a previous meeting showed us a map of where China is developing the silken belt initiative. He indicated that in a lot of the regions where that infrastructure is going, there are areas where human rights violations and ethnic cleansing are occurring. The Xinjiang region is part of that infrastructure. Do you think that is a reason why this ethnic minority is being captured and put away?

[Evelyn Puxley]

Well, we certainly heard a lot about the belt and road. My understanding is that one of the northern parts of that project does go through some of the areas in Xinjiang. I think our concern isn't so much related to the particular area where that northern route would go as it is more generally the treatment of Uighur minorities and other Muslim minorities in China. I wouldn't tie our concerns specifically to plans to build the belt and road. I think it's more of an issue of lack of respect for international human rights norms more generally.

[The Chair]

We have time for a very short question from Ms. Hardcastle.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Puxley.

I want to ask you very quickly if there are ways that Canada can or does help to protect the rights of activists here in Canada who are harassed by the Chinese government.

[Evelyn Puxley]

We are certainly aware of reports of Canadians of Uighur background being harassed. We would encourage them to report such harassment to local police authorities—who are also aware of this more general issue—and to make sure that when we meet with them, they speak about these issues to us.

I think it's fair to say that they are not the only community in Canada that is concerned in this regard. It's an issue that has been raised with Chinese authorities in the past, and I expect it will again be raised with Chinese authorities.

However, for those who feel they are targeted in this way, the first point of contact should obviously be with local police agencies.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are you aware of what happens to Uighurs who are returned back to China?

[Evelyn Puxley]

Here again, I think there are credible reports that many lose contact with their families and relatives back home. They are sent to these camps, whether they be education camps, detention camps, or however one wishes to describe them.

In my opening remarks, I mentioned that we're aware of Canadians who have lost contact with family members who are Chinese citizens in China. I think the concern is perhaps more general, in that those who have gone back, for example, and those who've been refouled from Thailand and Turkey, have also not been heard from again.

The simple answer is, yes, we're aware of those reports. I'm not in a position to verify them, but they're obviously of concern.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

I'd like to thank Ms. Puxley for your testimony and thank all the members.

We will now take a one-minute break and go in camera for five minutes to discuss committee business.

Thank you very much.

[Proceedings continue in camera]