Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 16th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

We'll leave it there, thank you.

We are now going to go to MP Sheehan.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you to this committee for undergoing such an important study, and thank you very much to the presenters.

Until about December 2016, humanitarian workers killed in that area numbered approximately 67. Can you tell me what groups are targeting these humanitarian workers and what is being done to stop the violence against humanitarian workers?

[Edmond Wega]

Mr. Chair, the issue of humanitarian workers has been at the forefront of our discussions, both diplomatically and on the ground. We have voiced our concerns and have been keeping the pressure on the Government of South Sudan to provide humanitarian access for humanitarian workers.

We have certainly heard about what has happened to humanitarian workers in South Sudan. It is difficult to know exactly who has committed those crimes, but we hold the Government of South Sudan accountable because the government is responsible for ensuring the safety and security of humanitarian workers who are there to support the people, the poorest and the most vulnerable.

This is an issue we have discussed and one of the key elements of the peace agreement. It's an area where a lot of work still needs to happen in order to ensure that access is provided and that humanitarian workers can actually do their work without being afraid of some of the issues we have heard about.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Earlier, there was a discussion about child soldiers. As a father, it's something that deeply bothers me.

We touched on some of the issues, but one of the questions I have is about what is being done by the international community to help child soldiers who are transitioning away from being child soldiers. For those who have decided not to continue or who have been helped to stop, what kinds of supports are there for child soldiers in the international community?

[Edmond Wega]

Mr. Chair, there are a number of partners currently working in support of those children who have been involved in conflicts. UNICEF is one of the key players in that regard. As we know, Canada has been supporting UNICEF in different forms.

There are also some non-governmental organizations that are very much involved in helping those children who have been involved in conflict to really take their future into their hands and start doing something more reflective of what children of a certain age should be doing to contribute to the development of their country.

Canada certainly has been voicing concerns about child soldiers. As I said, the international community is seized of that issue and has been working to assist, wherever this situation is found.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

During your presentation, a number of times you mentioned sanctions that are being applied in the region. Could you give me a little more detail and describe those sanctions? Perhaps you could describe the Canadian ones. I know the United Nations has applied sanctions, as well.

[Edmond Wega]

Mr. Chair, there are apparently some sanctions in place, established by the United Nations, against six South Sudanese individuals on each side of the conflict. We have also been pushing for an arms embargo, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, which unfortunately was not passed in December 2016. We take those issues very seriously. As I said, Canada has targeted sanctions against those people, and we have been very vocal about the need for an arms embargo.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you.

MP Sweet, go ahead.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Wega, for coming in and testifying. I am certain that it is a very difficult situation that you and the department are in, a quagmire such as this.

I doubt you have these numbers with you, so I'm going to ask, through the chair, if you would just table a couple of facts that I think we'll need for the report. One is the estimated strength of the government forces and of the opposition forces. If you could get that to us, that would be great. We have an idea of the combined forces with the UN, so we won't need that.

Also, could you give us a regional breakdown? You mentioned the 3.3 million displaced, but if you could get us a more accurate regional breakdown about where you think those numbers of displaced people or refugees are, that would be essential information for us as well.

I'm going into my 12th year on this committee. At one time, one of my staff, who was with me for just one year, actually looked at some of the cases here and said, “How do you endure this?” When I get to a case like this, I often ask myself how I endure this.

I want to ask for some clarification. On the one hand, you mentioned that Juba is stable, but in your remarks you said that this could evolve into an all-out genocide. We've had four years of conflict, 17,000 child soldiers, rape being used as a weapon of war, 3.3 million displaced people, and tens of thousands who are dead. When does the third pillar of the right to protect actually become something that Canada begins to shout very loudly about, where, if the state itself is not willing to protect its own citizens, then the international community has the responsibility to take action, first peaceably, and then, if it's required, with more coercive measures.

If we are on the precipice of genocide here—and certainly everything you've testified to gives me that...your estimation—when do we begin to really ramp it up, particularly because we are also investing significantly here and putting our own citizens at risk?

[Edmond Wega]

Mr. Chair, the situation of internally displaced people will certainly provide the information. Of the 3.3 million, about 1.48 million are actually outside of South Sudan. The rest are within the country, so they are internally displaced. There are some in the protection of civilian camps or sites in the country itself.

In terms of genocide, as I said before, the ethnic characteristics of the conflict have raised ongoing concerns, given the featuring of hate speech and violence. The UN special advisor on the prevention of genocide stressed that there is a strong risk of violence escalating along ethnic lines with the potential for genocide. We are monitoring the situation very closely, and the next few months will give us a sense of the state of play there and what else the international community can do.

As I said, there are about 13,000 UNMISS forces there today. We are expecting another 4,000; hopefully, that happens soon. On the other hand, we are certainly pushing to have a permanent ceasefire, which is essential if we are to really implement the peace process. The national dialogue that was called by the president in December is a good first step. Now we are discussing that to see how it can be a bit more inclusive, because as of today our understanding is that it is mostly government represented.

There are a number of steps ahead of us, and there are processes that we hope will lead to positive outcomes before we can assess the situation and see what else can be done. As I said, the African Union commission has also recently announced that former president Konaré will now be the special representative on South Sudan. He's doing quiet diplomacy and trying to bring the key players around the table for a peaceful resolution of the situation, which is, in our sense, the only sustainable way to address the issue in South Sudan.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Can I just encourage you to strongly encourage the minister that those steps that you're talking about.... I think the time has come to take those steps very rapidly. The human carnage here is to a degree that I don't think we can delay anymore.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Before we go to MP Fraser and the last question, MP Sheehan asked about sanctions. Just so we close out that issue, can you tell us maybe just a couple of details regarding Canadian-imposed sanctions and SEMA, the Special Economic Measures Act?

[Edmond Wega]

Canadian sanctions related to South Sudan were implemented under the Special Economic Measures Act. We started our own sanctions with a list of two people, and after that, the UN sanctions kicked in with six people, including the two people we had already included in our own sanctions. So the fact is that we have been applying the UN sanctions...a list of six people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you.

MP Fraser.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate the work that you're doing. I'll try to be quick because I only have a few minutes.

First, on the arms embargo, which I also support, I'm wondering if it's worth lobbying members of the Security Council again because of the periodic change in membership or if you believe that this is said and done. As part two of that question, if you believe that would be unsuccessful, are there are other ways we could achieve an arms embargo through diplomatic relations?

[Edmond Wega]

On an arms embargo, we're still very supportive of an arms embargo in South Sudan because we believe, if it's done through the UN or through the African Union, it will be more effective. We still hope something like that can happen.

Now what will happen in the next few months is difficult to know. There are processes under way as of today. Your question is, “Are there other ways to do that?” We strongly believe they are more effective when they're done collectively, when they're done on a multilateral front so everyone can actually apply the same decision that has been made.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I guess I'll just reiterate part one of the question. With the potential for changes in membership, knowing that the vote was seven in favour and eight abstaining, to me if there's one new member who sides with those in favour of an arms embargo, we could achieve this as long as none of the big five exercise the veto power. Is there any hope that it could take place?

[Edmond Wega]

This process was certainly a UN-led process, and we will need to continue the conservation with other members of the international community to see what's the most appropriate next step, given the situation.

As I said, there is a lot of hope placed in the national dialogue that was called in November or December of 2016, and there are some discussions under way to make that national dialogue more inclusive. We still hope through that process we can get to a ceasefire and the situation will certainly improve.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Very quickly, on the issue of food security, you mentioned there was some great success in terms of supporting local food production. Are there any steps being taken from a security perspective to ensure that those success stories don't fall victim to the conflict as well?

[Edmond Wega]

You are raising a great question.

Mr. Chair, the whole issue of sustainability of results in South Sudan is a big question. It's a fragile state. It is difficult to talk about sustainability, so we have to constantly apply the conflict sensitivity to our programming to ensure that what we do is actually benefiting the most vulnerable and be able to repeat that when we feel it is needed, because we cannot assume that what will work in South Sudan today is what would have worked in another country that is more stable and at peace.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

It looks as if we're right on two o'clock.

I want to thank the three of you for being here today and, again, getting our study rolling. We may even require some additional information from you as our testimony rolls forward, but I thank you for being here.

With that, we shall adjourn.