Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 6th, 2017

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay, thanks for clarifying that.

My grandfather worked as an electrician for Imperial Oil and was sent to Venezuela for a year. Even though I've never been to your country, I feel a bit of a family connection, because my father and all of my uncles and aunts lived there during that year.

I did want to pick up a little on the line of questioning about the economic crisis in Venezuela.

I think it's clear that mismanagement and corruption are major factors. Would it also be fair to say that the drop in oil prices is quite a significant part of the story?

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

Of course. Venezuela is an oil country, and it is a significant part of the story.

However, let's try to review quickly what has gone on in the last 15 years.

Venezuela used to be a country with about 250,000 companies and corporations. Now in Venezuela, 75% of such companies have been closed. Venezuela used to be a country with about 8,000 industries, with one of the largest industrial parks in the region. Now 90% of such industrial parks have been destroyed because of economic policy. Venezuela also used to be an agricultural country. Now, four million hectares have been expropriated by the government.

It's not just about oil. About 85% of the income in Venezuela comes from oil, but now 90% of the food comes from imports that have been controlled by the government. When you create a huge control of the economy and the economy now becomes an issue for the government in Venezuela, when that situation happens, you cannot produce in Venezuela and sell its products at a price that is superior to the production price.

That is what has happened in Venezuela with the control of the economy. There is a lot of distortion. We have three or four country exchange rates. That is why, in Venezuela, we have a country with a wage of less than $30 per person. We have moved in poverty from Chávez, at 40% in poverty, to plus 80% in poverty. That is the picture right now in my country.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I think one important point you made was that during the years of high oil prices, the Venezuelan government did not do a very good job of saving for the future, at least not compared to Norway, which was another example you cited.

We actually have the same sort of mismanagement in the Canadian oil-producing provinces, where there were these many years of an economic boom of high prices, and then really very little to show for it. No money was saved up. As you pointed out, Norway seems to have done a much better job of managing the proceeds from its oil.

Did you have any suggestions as to what kinds of institutions could be put in place to ensure those kinds of savings would occur if and when there is another period of strong commodity prices?

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

I'm going to tell you something. The first decision I would take in Venezuela at the time when the power changes is to suspend giving oil to Cuba. The energy agreement with Cuba in the last 13 years cost the country maybe more than $100 billion. We took about 150,000 barrels of oil every day that went to Cuba in the last 13 years. That happened also with the Caribbean islands, and also with Ecuador, Nicaragua, Bolivia, and even with de Kirchner in Argentina.

When you have such an amount of money just with the removal of these resources.... I'll give you another comparison. The amount of money that Venezuela provided to Cuba each year is more than what Venezuela has spent in health, in education, and even in the budgets of the whole 23 states. The budget of the 23 states is less than to the amount of money that Venezuela gave to Cuba.

It's not just about making changes and tackling the economic situation. It's about this fraternity of the left—

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

So Venezuela's been too generous in its foreign aid programs.

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

Irresponsible. You can be generous, but not irresponsible.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

This is very interesting testimony, for sure. I'd also like to ask you what sort of international assistance or intervention could improve the human rights situation in Venezuela? Because, of course, after Chávez came to power, the American government sponsored a coup against him, which I think probably worsened the human rights situation and led to a siege mentality.

It's important for the international community to intervene in a way that's going to be constructive and that's going to actually make things better for the people of Venezuela. I'm just wondering if you have some suggestions on that front.

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

Yes, that's why we've come to this committee many times. Again, in my experience approaching institutions around the world, Canada has been recognized as one of the champions of human rights.

Canada has a history of negotiation and dialogue. Canada is a peace-making country and has the expertise to retain a very interesting, neutral position to persuade and to conduct some kind of overture to the humanitarian channel in Venezuela. That is important, because as you've seen over the last 18 years, the Venezuelan government has not demonstrated a huge confrontation with Canada.

I think this committee could try to provide the skill to negotiate or to persuade the Venezuelan government to open immediately the humanitarian channel. Why do they not accept that? It's because they say to the international community that we are not in an humanitarian emergency. That is the challenge.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move on to MP Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Thank you for your testimony today.

There's a quote I want to read. It comes from Monica de Bolle. She's from the Peterson Institute for International Economics. She was quoted on the weekend, in an article, as follows, in light of what had happened with the supreme court backing down on the decision to take over the powers of the National Assembly. She said that Mr. Maduro now lacks a strongman image and “that's usually the first step in ousting a dictator”. It's “the beginning of the end for him”.

First of all, my question is this. Do you agree with that assessment? I wonder if you could insert in your answer your thoughts on whether or not the military is uniformly behind the regime or whether there are pockets of disloyalty, perhaps, that are emerging, especially in light of what's happened in the past few days and with all the other problems that Venezuela is experiencing. All authoritarian leaders rely on a coercive apparatus, especially the military, so I wonder if you could talk about the loyalty of the military in particular, and the police forces, if you'd like. Also, is the opposition united? Another factor that authoritarian leaders rely on is a divided opposition.

I put the question to both of you, but we haven't heard from you yet, Ms. Torres.

[Maria Torres]

Well, no, because as I said before, the fact that I've been living here for such a long time limits the technical information that I have. My experience is that first-hand experience. It is the perception of the situation. I can tell you about my personal experience, and that of my parents and people I've known whom I've grown up with, with the deterioration of the fabric of society, but I don't have.... Whatever I can tell you is just speculation, what I think, what I've heard.

I do think that, yes, we might be a little bit divided, but once we have elections, everybody is in a real democracy. We'll be able to run and to elect the party we need. Right now we are trying to stay together as much as we can. That is my perception.

Thank you for asking.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Go ahead, Mr. Viera-Blanco.

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

Yes, let me divide my answer into three bottom lines.

Is it the beginning of the end of Maduro? I can tell you something. I have been writing to the public opinion in Venezuela to say, “Listen, don't try to say that the opposition in Venezuela is weak because they started a dialogue. Let's try to create a view that realpolitik is elastic.” Realpolitik is a photograph of a moment. Tomorrow everything changes, and then something changes the perception you have, in a moment.

Just a week ago Venezuela faced a very frustrating situation. Dissident people who follow the opposition felt there had been some kind of betrayal by the opposition leaders because they decided to sit down and dialogue. Suddenly, that happened with the international community. That happened with the OAS. That created a reaction from the supreme court of Venezuela, as I already explained, which changed the whole dynamic of the situation in Venezuela, and created right now, again, enthusiasm of the Venezuelan people not just with the leader of the opposition in Venezuela, but enthusiasm with the international community. You can't imagine how many emails I received because I live in Canada, just telling me, “Thank you for Canada's position in the OAS.” That is stimulating.

What will happen with the military? If, in Venezuela—and I'm going to make a prognostication here—the social and civil population is just so tired with what's going on with the humanitarian situation, they'll take to the streets. A huge combination of people are unstoppable. The military people in the middle, who are part of Venezuela society, they are going to apply some kind of disobedience. That is the real situation of the middle stage of the military.

Third is whether or not the opposition is united. For sure there are some actors in the opposition who have been forced to negotiate some kind of alliance to fight the government. As an adviser of the assembly, I can tell you for sure that the line to recovering democracy, the line to go to the election, the line to try to create exits under the constitution and the institutional, legal, and democratic bases, they are united in such a direction.

Election in Venezuela is very important because, until yesterday, nobody believed in an election in Venezuela, from dissidents, from the common people. Now people are forcing it, again. They will fight for an election in Venezuela, an impartial election in Venezuela. That is a challenge.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Here is one last question. Suppose Mr. Maduro is able to hold on to power for another two or three years, or whatever the case might be—let's use that as an example, two or three years—and oil prices during that time, for whatever reason, go up dramatically, even to the point that oil prices reached under Chávez.

Will that allow the regime to maintain power?

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

Maybe in that hypothetical situation he could recover a little bit the people's approval of the regime, but there's another factor. Maduro is not charismatic as Chávez used to be. That, in my opinion, is a recovery.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I ask the question because with more oil profits, obviously he and the regime could hand out many carrots, if he likes.

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

But the situation is so devastating right now. We're talking about 300,000 people dying because of the violence, or—

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

I want to give MP Sweet the last two minutes here, because I know he has a question to ask—or MP Anderson.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Just on the basis of what you're talking about, then, where do the neighbouring countries stand right now? One issue has been trying to get the neighbours engaged and speaking out against this. Typically, the OAS for many years was very ineffective on this issue. You're calling for international intervention. Where do you see the help coming from within the region, and who is going to take the leadership on this to lead to a new day?

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

It's interesting, because with the oil situation in Venezuela, just decorum lost the capacity to buy the consciences of many neighbourhoods in the region. You can see already in the OAS how the declaration of power changed things. We already have easily 20 votes in the OAS, and the pressure of the international community is even seen in little island countries that keep the position to support Venezuela, plus Ecuador, Bolivia, and Nicaragua.

I think the dynamic of the international community has changed. I think the consciousness of human rights at this moment is appropriate in order to extend the situation and inform the international community about what is going on in Venezuela. That's why we are here to ask you.... We have some new elements that we are looking to put in your report. We're suggesting to you that it is a good moment to call an urgent meeting about the situation in Venezuela, because it's very important.

There is one more thing that I want to say. I have some sensitive experience about the acknowledgement of the Venezuelan situation by Canadian fonctionnaires. It's important that the media and Canadian fonctionnaires know well the reality in Venezuela. This is important in order to change a little bit the criteria for accepting refugee status, residency status, and to make an evaluation and validation of immigration values to allow Venezuelan people to come to Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

I want to thank you both for testifying here before the subcommittee today. We've heard some dramatic and significant testimony from you in terms of the deteriorating situation. We understand the recent developments, and you've managed to shine a light on those for us as well.

We have and continue to take this situation and that human rights abuses that are being perpetrated by the government in Venezuela very seriously. The members of this committee will be issuing a joint statement addressing some of these issues. This is something we're absolutely going to be keeping on the radar of this committee and something that is taken seriously not just by the parliamentarians in this group but by the government and all parliamentarians in the House of Commons.

[Orlando Viera-Blanco]

On behalf of our Venezuelan people, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you for being here.

The meeting is adjourned.