Evidence of meeting #61 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was maduro.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
1:40 p.m.
NDP
Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much to all of you for coming. This is a very important issue for our committee to discuss because of the words that Lilian—if I may call you Lilian—used, “rescue our democracy”. The idea of rescuing a democracy is part of this committee's role. How do we see Canada? Where does Canada fit in with this?
Part of it for us is that we have to understand the past so that when we're rescuing a democracy we don't want to take it back to where it was before, in my respectful observation. You're trying to evolve, you're trying to build a democracy, and build something better than what has ever been in your history.
In all due respect, I cannot look on any point in the history of that beautiful country and not say, “I want to fight to get this back. I want to see improvement.”
What I'd like to hear from you is some of the intellectual argument we can use within the OAS, even, about enhancing and building your democracy. One thing I want to ask you about is this idea. It goes along with my colleague's question about paramilitary. The military role is very hard to understand in countries like ours because there isn't a military role in government or in our court system. How could we advocate or advance...? What do you think needs to happen? I ask because I'm assuming that those arguments were brought to the Maduro government. How did these protests and disagreements escalate into the volatility there now? We have to be able to figure out how we can help you. You're in this crisis and we have to help you come out of it stronger and better.
Help us understand what the role of the military court is now. There was a proposal that I have read about, about a constitutional military assembly that would include representation from the armed forces and workers. Is that issue right now something that we can help advocate for in the OAS? Maybe you see there's a more direct way we can do that.
As a committee we make recommendations, so we have to be able to be helpful and constructive.
Maybe Mr. Cotler will have some observations for us as well on how we can help move forward and gain a better, broader understanding of what this military role is right now, which obviously needs to modified or maybe even expunged.
1:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I think one of the first questions is that since Chávez started ruling the country, he gave the military different roles. We have the army, we have the national guard, we have the air force, and we have the armada. He started giving the military management responsibilities in the government.
Nowadays when you go to see who holds the positions in the government, I think 80% come from the armed forces. That puts back the responsibility of the army and of the armed forces, because they are there to keep the integrity of the country, to keep peace, to follow the rules. Now they are compromising with the government, and what Lilian just talked about has been proven, namely that there is a lot of drug trafficking in Venezuela. Venezuela is now the path between Colombia and the rest of the world, and the military are completely involved in all of that.
It came about because of a distortion from what Chávez decided 18 years ago, and you can see that it took almost a whole generation. The way the generals are promoted...never have we had so many generals, and I think we have more generals than any democratic country in the hemisphere. I think that's one of the big problems we have with the military.
And what you were addressing about the constitution, the military....
[Witness speaks in Spanish]
1:45 p.m.
As an Individual
Your question is very important. I asked the same questions to Leopoldo, in jail. Why is our country like that? Why is there a mess like this? What happened? Leopoldo answered, “Lilian, it was 18 years with Chávez and they put in ministers.” We met a lot of ministers today here, very important people, specialists in their themes. But in Venezuela, they put the military in the ministries. They put military friends of Chávez into all positions. That's how they destroyed our country. That's why we don't have food; we don't have medicine. We have a narco state because there are carteles militares in Venezuela.
I asked the same question of Leopoldo to try to understand my country. It's a mess. It's difficult.
We have the Venezuelan constitution, which is rich in human rights. It's a very good constitution. They did that in the year 1999, and we want our constitution. We want that constitution. We don't need another one. The new constitution Maduro wants right now is illegal. The National Constituent Assembly was not consulted on with Venezuelans. The first sentence of article 347 explains very clearly that the people of Venezuela are the repository of the original constitutional power. This means that only Venezuelan voters grant, all throughout the electoral process, that the National Constituent Assembly could be convened. The proposal of the National Constituent Assembly illegally changed the rules to ensure a majority.
I'm going to explain that to you. The original power of the people is not now with the people. It's a group of Maduro's, so it's a fraud. Everybody rejects this new fraud of Maduro. It's a new coup d'état, and all the leaders of the continent say that it's worse, including groups of Maduro—Escarra. Yesterday people very near Maduro yesterday said, “No, this is not constitutional. You are crazy. No, we want our constitution, and we need to respect the constitution.”
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for being here. This is an ongoing situation and this committee has unanimously decided to study it further and give it more attention.
My question for you both is that Venezuelan officials have contended that elections are simply not a priority right now. They said they have more pressing issues to deal with. I think you would probably agree that good governance and a change in government is probably what the people are protesting for. They want a revamp of their country. They want their country back, and they don't want to have high prices for food, inflation, etc.
What's your opinion on the government saying that elections are not a priority for them right now?
1:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Because they are going to lose. They don't have the people.
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
My question is that they keep putting that forward in the media, saying they are trying to do everything they can to try to avoid an election, and they haven't set a date right now. There were talks about a 2018 election, but they're doing things in their power to avoid that.
Can you elaborate on that?
1:50 p.m.
Founding Chair, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights
If I might interject, I may be able to use your question and also answer Ms. Hardcastle's question at the same time.
We have to appreciate that we are meeting at a time of a repressive dictatorship in Venezuela and a state of emergency, a fundamental assault on democracy, human rights, and the rule of law. Therefore, what are the things that Canada can do and this parliamentary committee recommend?
Number one is free and fair elections, which 83% of Venezuelans want; and they want a change in government.
Number two is the restoration of democracy, human rights, and the rule of law, specifically respect for the constitution, for the freely elected parliament, for the independence of the judiciary.
Number three is the release of political prisoners, including, in particular, Leopoldo López as the leader of the democratic opposition.
Number four is the provision of humanitarian assistance to put an end to the humanitarian crisis.
This is what has been put forward by Lilian Tintori and in representations made today with an all-party meeting of parliamentarians and the Prime Minister. These are the four specific requests. They would allow for the restoration of democracy, human rights, the rule of law, and constitutionalism in Venezuela.
1:50 p.m.
Jared Genser Legal Counsel, As an Individual
In response to your question, if I could just mention 2018 and the timing, the reason why the OAS and the international community is calling for early elections is that the constitutionally permitted recall referendum—there's a process to recall the president gathering a certain number of votes—was blocked by Maduro; he refused to allow that to proceed. As a result, he unconstitutionally stopped a process that was created by the constitution when a certain number of signatures are gathered, and he refused to honour that signature gathering effort. This is why the international community is not focused on the date of the expiration of his term now, but is calling for early elections in 2017. It's because he has already unconstitutionally blocked the recall referendum, which would have been the right or the first best alternative to have him be gone.
1:55 p.m.
Liberal
Marwan Tabbara Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
To Ms. López, you mentioned the military and security forces. Do you see any fragmentation or divisions within the security forces at this point, or have they kind of been under Maduro's, being united as one entity?
1:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I'm going to answer you, just from the conversation I had with my son Leopoldo on Sunday. He was telling me that he has been in a military prison for the last three and a half years and has had the chance to talk to soldiers, majors, officials; they're the ones who have him in prison. His own perception and experience is that more than 50% or 60% of those military prisoners want Maduro out, because they're against the dictatorship. I can give you a small example.
What's happening in the whole military armed forces.... We don't have information, so that's the reason I'm giving you valuable information of what my son is perceiving in prison. All of the top level is completely committed to Maduro, because they share in the corruption, they share in the drug trafficking, and they violate human rights with Maduro's consent. They're a very small group managing the country.
It seems that in the lower ranks there is starting to be a lot of division, as the people who really are Venezuelans and who really love their country don't agree with all the killings. They don't agree with all the brutal oppression against the Pacific Venezuelans, and they want to solve the food shortages, the torture, the health problems, the homicides and violence. As Lilian said, every 90 minutes there is a Venezuelan who dies because civilians have been armed by the government. They have been armed by Chávez since the beginning.
1:55 p.m.
As an Individual
They control everything. They control the media, they control the TV, the radio; and they control the airport; the court; the jail. The military jail is at the top of a mountain, but the whole mountain is a military zone, so we get in the lower part of the mountain and we start saying good morning to the army. The soldiers are armed with guns and they block us. We start saying hello all the way up to the hill. All the military say, “Continue fighting, continue fighting, say hello to Leopoldo, continue fighting, faith faith, continue fighting.” That's all the military. But we get inside the jail and they have four military people who take Leopoldo...the customs. They are direct with Maduro and with [Inaudible--Editor], and they push us, they record all of our conjugal visits, intimate visits with my kids, with my mother-in-law. They record every visit and they take off our clothes every time we go into the jail. They strip search us inside the jail.
But all of the soldiers in the mountain military zone said, “Continue fighting.”
1:55 p.m.
Liberal
May 16th, 2017 / 1:55 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I appreciate the opportunity. This is the second time I've been a visitor on this committee, and I'm very appreciative of the testimony I'm hearing today.
What I'm hearing is that you no longer have a government that serves your country, you're calling for action, and there is no longer time for diplomacy. Can I ask you which OAS states in particular must be pressured to take a stand on Maduro and the violence?
2 p.m.
As an Individual
We need the support of countries that right now are abstaining. In the last vote, talking about Venezuela, the General Secretary of OAS, Luis Almagro, had all the information about Venezuela and did not form a very good document of all our realities. In the last vote among all these countries, there were yes votes, no votes, and two abstentions. Yesterday in the OAS all these countries abstained. Only one, Nicaragua, said no with regard to talking about Venezuela.
We have an opportunity where all these countries, who before were ciegos por la situación and who said no, are now all here. Canada can help a lot by talking with these countries who come here, and by saying, yes, let's talk about Venezuela and put pressure on them to have elections, to have channels for food and medicine, to have respect for the national assembly, and to release all political prisoners.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt
Thank you very much.
We have one short point of clarification from MP Sweet.
2 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON
It's just a clarification, Chair. Ms. Tintori, in the last portion of her answer, was mentioning something that I think is important for the committee to know.
You were mentioning about being continually strip-searched when you went there. So they're using this as intimidation to stop you from having the courage to see your husband.
2 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, that's correct.
It has been going on like that for the last two years and a half. The worst day—I think it was in January of 2016—was when I was stripped in front of my granddaughter Manuela. She just couldn't believe what she was participating in.
You know, for me especially, it's very, very hard to denounce all of these aggressions. They're very intimidating. They're very hard to manage. But Mr. Cotler, Jared, and everyone who has worked with us in human rights have told us that we have to inform on everything that's happening to us.
Once I was out of the little room where I was stripped, we made it public through international media. Then the attorney general, because of that—this was very interesting—took some medidas culturales, special measures, to protect us. The director of the prison, who was always the most aggressive one, couldn't get near us.
This is just so you understand how aggressive they are with Leopoldo's family. We go every single day. If they have to strip us 10 times, we'll be there to be stripped 10 times. We will always be there. They intimidate us because they think maybe it will stop us from going with the frequency that we will always go in.
2 p.m.
As an Individual
We did denounce that. The director of that jail, when he finished his term inside the jail where he tortured Leopold and our family, was given responsibility for the airport and the port in Caracas in Venezuela.
2 p.m.
A voice
He was promoted.
2 p.m.
As an Individual
Ellos premian a los torturadores: they promote those in the army who torture Leopoldo, political prisoners, and our families.
2 p.m.
Legal Counsel, As an Individual
The same, by the way, goes for the judge in the case. The judge was also promoted after convicting Leopoldo in a ridiculous one-sided trial. She is now the federal public defender of the entire country. Having allowed 600 hours of testimony against Leopoldo and only three hours for the defence, giving him thirteen and a half years in prison, she was promoted and is now the public defender for the entire country.
