Evidence of meeting #72 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was america.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Duane McMullen  Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Jeffrey Davidson  Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Tarik Khan  Director General, Central America and Caribbean Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

1:35 p.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Duane McMullen

I'm looking to my colleagues.

Go ahead, Tarik.

1:35 p.m.

Tarik Khan Director General, Central America and Caribbean Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

I think if you take a look at our feminist international assistance policy that was released earlier this year, you'll see a mention, particularly in the section “Growth that works for everyone”, about the importance of feminizing how we approach supporting economic opportunities for women writ large, and in all sectors.

In the extractive sector it's quite interesting, because certainly there can be a lot more involvement of women in the supply chains that support extractive sector activities, obviously at the consultation process in terms of the impact of a particular company's operations on a community. Then, of course, at all levels of the value chain, of the supply chain, there are opportunities for the greater involvement of women. For example, you could have a small community where a company is active and they need certain things in their supply chain. It could be preparing uniforms, or making things that involve manufacturing, such as small-scale manufacturing and fabrication. Women can clearly work, obviously, in that aspect of the supply chain. Then, of course, we encourage companies to be equal opportunity employers as well for their actual operation itself.

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

What kinds of challenges do women face in this industry?

1:35 p.m.

Director General, Central America and Caribbean Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Tarik Khan

I think it depends on which industry, on whether you're talking about mining versus oil and gas. They are of course quite different. I think mining has traditionally been a very male-dominated occupation, even here in Canada as well. In oil and gas there's a lot of opportunity, particularly in various aspects of a company's operations. We do see a fair number of women active in oil and gas operations.

There are the operations of the company and then there are the value chains. Really, if local leaders identify a need for more economic activity, more diversification of economic activity, in a community affected by the sector, let's say, we certainly encourage women to get more involved in various aspects of the value chain. But the obstacles are not faced exclusively by women. They are the challenges of any rural community getting involved in the value chain when a company enters the community.

1:35 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Davidson, in your testimony you mentioned that you interact a lot with companies that are on the ground operating. Can you explain some situations where companies would reach out to you to seek support? And what kind of support do you provide for them?

1:35 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

There are a couple of types of interactions. Sometimes companies call and say, “Jeffrey, we want to give you a heads-up. We know that we have some difficulties approaching. This is what's coming down the pipeline, and you should be aware.” Or they call and say, “This is what has happened in the field. Would you like more information? We'd like your thoughts on how we're approaching this and responding to it.”

We've also.... I'm getting too old for this, I think.

1:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

1:35 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

If I can just move to the side here, there are the ambassadors themselves, too. We've had calls from ambassadors in the field, again asking for advice on particular situations they're faced with and how they might approach dealing with companies or dealing with government on these situations.

When we're in the field and we see what's going on, we talk to the company about things we see that concern us. We ask questions: “Why are you doing it this way? Why are you not doing that?” When we come back to Canada, we often re-engage with the head office teams to follow up and say, “Well, these are our thoughts. These are our suggestions. This is what we suggest you do going forward.” We try to monitor that and continue to have conversations around the sites that we've visited where we have seen things and practices that can be improved.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Do you provide a gender lens on some of your feedback to companies?

1:40 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

Thus far, we do not, although I should say that when I worked for industry, for Rio Tinto, I was part of a team that authored a guidance manual called Why gender matters. Our interest was in ensuring that operations, people at sites, had the tools and the understanding available to them to recognize the impacts that mining activities might have on gendered relationships outside the gate, in the communities that are impacted or affected by the operations: that balances can shift and change; that women can be put at a disadvantage in a new situation, and so on.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Mr. McMullen.

1:40 p.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Duane McMullen

Through the Devonshire Initiative, an NGO that brings companies, NGOs, and academia together, there are active efforts ongoing now with the mining companies to quantify gender impacts and measure them. As we've seen in many other areas, once you start with that as a baseline, you can set targets and make progress. Work is very advanced in this area. It is a priority for us and for the mining sector to get a better understanding on those issues.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Have there been reports generated on that?

1:40 p.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Duane McMullen

I'm not sure if they've reached the publication stage yet. Devonshire Initiative could speak better to that, or the mining industry if you're talking to them later.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you.

1:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

We're now going to move to MP Hardcastle.

1:40 p.m.

NDP

Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony today.

Mr. McMullen, in your testimony earlier you described Canada as unique in the world in the process we have for sanction and redress. How can you help us look forward in terms of some tangible recommendations, as Mr. Davidson has alluded to as well? It is problematic that our process is indeed unique. It is a voluntary process, and that's what part of what we need to be able to examine in a more fulsome way as a committee.

In terms of our membership in the OECD and some of the recommendations they have made to Canada, what do you see as a way we can move forward with this process so that the diplomatic support that you were talking about is still there but has the resources, or the teeth? Maybe you could talk a little about that, and then perhaps your comments could allow a springboard for Mr. Davidson as well.

1:40 p.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Duane McMullen

Canada is unique in having a sanction where we will deny diplomatic support and we will say so publicly to a Canadian company that's not acting in good faith. This is the topic of much conversation at the OECD. Several countries have come to us and asked how we implement it. They are actively studying it.

I have mixed feelings in saying that we might not be unique for much longer, but right now, this is an area where we are ahead of our peer countries in the OECD.

In terms of recommendations that the OECD has made to Canada, it's a matter of public record, but they believe the government, for instance, should create a multi-stakeholder advisory body so that we bring industry, academia, and civil society together in the same room to be a challenge function to our policy and to provide advice on our policy. That is something that Canada has not done yet; it is a recommendation that is outstanding from the OECD.

They've also recommended that we be more, how shall I say this, verbose in our statements around individual cases when we do publish our final reports.

1:45 p.m.

NDP

Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

In the interest of time, those of us who are here have done our research. We don't need you to reiterate the recommendations, but rather, pull from them how you believe we can move forward so that our voluntary system can actually be fortified with something enforceable. We're exploring the existing legislative environment right now.

Maybe you want to pull from the recommendation you just spoke about and expand on it, or just turn it over to Mr. Davidson, because we know the recommendations. Thank you.

1:45 p.m.

Director General, Trade Commissioner Service - Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Duane McMullen

Okay. My role here, Mr. Chairman, is to defend and explain our existing policy, not to be able to comment on the directions the policy may go. But certainly legislation is an option that could be considered. But maybe I will pass to my colleague Jeffrey Davidson, who might want to go a little bit farther in that regard.

1:45 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

Well, I haven't seriously turned my attention to specific recommendations. However, in my third year, which has started, one of the aims or objectives and key elements of our work plan is to begin to lay out some of the lessons learned, some of the gaps and omissions that the government should consider redressing or strengthening. I hope that this will not be an alone exercise, that I'll be able to talk to others to incorporate not only my own thoughts and ideas but those of others in the final reports I prepare for the minister, hopefully, and for Parliament.

September 26th, 2017 / 1:45 p.m.

NDP

Cheryl Hardcastle NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you.

I certainly wasn't expecting, when you bring testimony here, that you're going to come with succinct recommendations and that our work is done for us. But this is a trail-blazing conversation—you probably all realize this—and we need to have an enlightened discussion. With all due respect for your time in preparing your statement and the work you've done here, we do really believe that Canadians and the members of Parliament who are around this table here deserve to hear from you your educated perspective on this, not just your role in defending what exists.

I take exception to that. I'm not really comfortable with people sitting here and telling us that. And I don't mean that in a confrontational way. I just mean this needs to be a springboard for meaningful discussion. And, yes, we're the ones who are going to have to do the hard work and make a recommendation or say that, you know what, this status quo is satisfactory. So I just want to clarify that.

Thank you.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Michael Levitt

Thank you, MP Hardcastle.

We are now going to move to MP Fragiskatos.

1:45 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thanks very much.

Thank you to all of you for being here today. I appreciated the note about the OECD. I wasn't aware of those conversations that have been happening, so thank you for shedding light on that.

Mr. Davidson, you mentioned at the outset that you have experience in academia, you've worked in the private sector, and obviously you're in your current role. It's a wide breadth of experience. Could you comment in very general terms about where you think the Canadian extractive sector is, or rather where we rank on a global level when it comes to devotion to CSR activities and principles? It sounds as if you're interacting with a number of companies in the field. I think you said there's one company that is a particularly bad case, but by and large, there seems to be buy-in on the part of the Canadian private sector that are engaged in extraction when it comes to CSR. Could you comment on that?

1:45 p.m.

Extractive Sector Corporate Social Responsibility Counsellor, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Jeffrey Davidson

It's more complicated than that. I do believe that given the scope and scale of Canadian activity, and the constraints and limitations of the mechanisms that we have in place, we have to operate on the presumption that companies are working in good faith. And we have to rely oftentimes on others to bring difficult situations to our attention if we don't find them ourselves.

I have to say that with the major companies most of them are leaders and pioneers in this area. They make mistakes and they have sometimes created problems for themselves. Part of that is related to the fact that their understanding is limited, or their management system is not appropriate. They do micro-management from the centre for problems on the ground that they don't truly understand, and they create problems and errors for themselves and their teams.

Where we have a bigger challenge is in the junior exploration and mining community, where they work to a different drummer, so to speak. They have a different timeline. Many of them are not in this for the long term. They claim poverty, so the challenge of helping them understand the importance and the value of this work is more difficult. This doesn't mean that there aren't juniors that are actually working in a very progressive and forward-looking way, but there are also those that are in for the quick win.

That is where our challenge is.