Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Pierre Gratton]

There is an awful lot that appears to be hanging on certain words.

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes.

[Pierre Gratton]

We talk about joint fact finding, which involves investigation. The process through which you get to investigation is what's important for us. Often, with independent investigation, I think the image is of some super-ombudsman who goes in-country and does an investigation, and the goal is to find out who is at fault and pronounce, and—

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Let me just help you, so that my time is used wisely. We don't have that now, so for us to move forward that aspiration—

[Pierre Gratton]

The reason we are recommending joint fact finding is that, initially, the IFC went down the unilateral investigation route, and they found that they themselves were becoming part of the problem. They were going in independently and adjudicating in a complex environment, and finding that they were contributing to conflict because their pronouncements, their findings, were not recognized by either party. So joint fact finding—

[Cheryl Hardcastle, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. I have only a few more seconds. Really quickly, what are some of the ways the Canadian government provides assistance to mining companies in other countries? You said earlier that, through the trade commissioner, the state support.... What are some examples of how they help?

[Pierre Gratton]

Well, they can provide information on how the country works. They can provide support in liaising with the government. There is a lot of support that embassies can provide.

[The Chair, Liberal, Michael Levitt]

Thank you.

We are now going to move to MP Khalid, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Gratton, you can finish the answer to Ms. Hardcastle's question, if you'd like.

[Pierre Gratton]

Yes, I would, thank you.

The reason why the IFC moved to joint fact finding is that, with this mechanism, you are bringing the parties together at the outset. You have the ombudsman in place, or whatever you want to call that person, and they are bringing the parties together. They are working towards an agreement on what the issue is, how it should be investigated, and who should investigate it. There is still an investigation role, but the parties are part of the process. Then, when you get to the end and you've identified the problem and the remedies that are appropriate, everyone buys in. It's much harder to walk away from that kind of a process than when someone goes in independently.

This is not new stuff. I mean, we do this in Canada. This is just a better way of getting to an outcome that.... It contributes to bringing parties together and resolving disputes. That's our view.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Gratton.

I just want some points of clarification from you. Do all extractive companies become a part of the Mining Association of Canada when they're out, especially in Latin America? Is this a voluntary...?

[Pierre Gratton]

MAC is a membership organization. You have to pay to be a member. Also, if you are a member, you have to implement our initiative towards sustainable mining. It's probably interesting for the committee to know that, since TSM, our membership has grown. We have companies joining us now because they see the value of this program. Our membership is the largest it has ever been.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

How do you hold companies accountable if they violate the TSM?

[Pierre Gratton]

We have a process for removing members if they (a), refuse to implement the program, and (b), fail to show progress in performance over time.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

What kind of repercussions do companies face if they're removed from membership?

[Pierre Gratton]

It would be a bad name. There aren't other consequences. We're a membership organization, but frequently when groups look to organizations like that, NGOs and others, that's what they look for: will you kick somebody out if they refuse to abide by your standards? The answer in our case is yes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

When you were setting up your guiding principles for TSM, was a gender analysis conducted? Different communities and different groups where mining companies operate are obviously impacted in different ways.

[Pierre Gratton]

The guiding principles, no, not at that time. The implementation of the aboriginal community engagement protocol certainly would take those types of issues into account, but it wasn't done explicitly, no.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

What kind of challenges stop or inhibit mining companies when they're on the ground in how they operate in valuing and respecting human rights and local and indigenous communities?

[Pierre Gratton]

I would make one more comment on your previous question. We do go through a process of reviewing our performance standards in each of the categories every year. Community engagement is up next year, and we've identified gender as one of the issues that we should consider revising. I should just make that point.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that.

[Ben Chalmers]

The issues you're asking about are wide and far ranging.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Can you give a few examples?

[Ben Chalmers]

Paul had them when he was here. Distribution of benefits is a key factor that's very complicated to deal with. Water is often cited as a major source of conflict, artisanal mining, small-scale mining, security issues, indigenous rights. The list is long, and you'd probably find them all in our industry, which is why it's so difficult and why the companies have taken on such efforts to try to understand how to do things like implement the UN guiding principles on business and human rights, the voluntary principles on security and human rights, which I spoke about earlier, and continue to look for tools on how to understand these issues and deal with them more proactively.

[Pierre Gratton]

Weak governance is probably at the top of that list. One of the biggest problems is if communities don't feel the government's providing them with a voice, companies have to fill that void too.