Evidence of meeting #4 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Adrian Zenz  Senior Fellow in China Studies, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation
Olsi Jazexhi  Professor and Journalist, As an Individual
David Kilgour  As an Individual
Raziya Mahmut  Vice-President, International Support for Uyghurs
Jacob Kovalio  Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Rayhan Asat  President, American Turkic International Lawyers Association
Alex Neve  Secretary General, Amnesty International Canada
Irwin Cotler  Founding Chair, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Erica Pereira
Mehmet Tohti  Executive Director, Uyghurs Rights Advocacy Project
Irene Turpie  Canadians in Support of Refugees in Dire Need
Chris MacLeod  Lawyer, Founding Partner, Cambrige LLP, As an Individual
Gani Stambekov  Interpreter, As an Individual
Jewher Ilham  Author, Human Rights Activist, As an Individual
Sayragul Sauytbay  East Turkistan Minority Activist, Recipient of the 2020 International Women of Courage Award, As an Individual
Kamila Talendibaevai  Uighur Rights Activist, As an Individual

Noon

Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual

Jacob Kovalio

Thank you very much. I'm very impressed with the opinions of all participants. Let me go straight to the point. Now I understand why Kashgar Airport has a special lane for organ export passengers.

There was a reference to the atmosphere, especially in those vocational, so-called education camps with children. There is a memo from 2017 regarding the way in which they are to be run by those who run them. Of course I am talking about Uighur children. It says to make Mandarin training a priority, ensure full video surveillance coverage of dormitories and classrooms free of blind spots, prevent escapes, impose hard discipline and punishment for behavioural violations, promote repentance and confession, and ensure that students undergo real change.

Last, but I think not least in the context of policy suggestions as it were, there has to be, in my view, at least, more co-operation and coordination with regard to applying pressure on China, a variety of kinds of pressure, so that the Uighur situation improves.

For example, Chen Quanguo, the Communist party boss, last week was sanctioned by the U.S. Congress. I think that is something that we should consider as well. In addition to that—and there is some kind of interconnectedness here—last week the U.K. announced that it was abandoning having Huawei do its 5G network and was instead moving to Japanese technology and Japanese companies.

In other words, we—meaning the democracies of Canada, the United States, Europe and Japan—should do more to reinforce or impress upon the Chinese regime, and first and foremost, of course, Xi Jinping, what we are all about, because this a dire threat, not only to the Uighurs first and foremost but also to the rest of the democratic world.

Thank you.

Noon

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

I have just one very quick question, a follow-up question actually for Mr. Zenz.

Mr. Zenz, you talked a bit about western companies not being as implicated in their supply chains. Could you talk a little about that? My understanding is that there are a number of western-based multinationals or corporations that are implicated, and I'd like your thoughts on how we could work with them on that.

Noon

Senior Fellow in China Studies, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

Adrian Zenz

Western companies do sell products. Some like Heinz produce tomato ketchup and Volkswagen produces cars. The most direct implication in the police state is through technology, which involves Chinese companies and Chinese technology, but I think western implications are much more through the supply chain, and also cotton and textiles, especially textiles, so—

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

That ends our first round. We now move into our second round, which will be five minutes of questions by each of the members.

We will move to Ms. Khalid for the first five minutes.

July 20th, 2020 / 12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to all of you, witnesses. I really do appreciate your advocacy and your testimony. I've been trying to unpack some of the recommendations that some of you have made. I will try to do the best that I can in my five minutes.

Mr. Zenz, in one of your recommendations, you said that there needs to be a full legal determination of the nature of the atrocities.

Who do you think should be making that legal determination? Are you suggesting Canada specifically or the international community as an organization?

12:05 p.m.

Senior Fellow in China Studies, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

Adrian Zenz

I would like to see both. I think individual nations have a responsibility. Sometimes there's a legal precedent to make a determination of the nature of the atrocity. For example, I'm aware that the United States State Department is able to do that, but hasn't done so, which is a notable omission. I'm not sure about the situation in Canada, but I believe that individual western democratic nations should do so, and then on top of that, at the multilateral level with the United Nations as well. There we have the problem of elite co-optation by China.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you.

I think the ultimate objective of a lot of these recommendations is to encourage China to stop these atrocities against the Uighur community.

Dr. Olsi, in your testimony you spoke about how you were invited to film the concentration camps or the re-educational camps. Can you go into that a little more? Why did you get invited to film? Do you think it's because China feels pressure from the international community that it needed to respond to that pressure by inviting you?

12:05 p.m.

Professor and Journalist, As an Individual

Dr. Olsi Jazexhi

Yes, Iqra, that is right. China is under a lot of pressure. We saw, even during our visit in Xinjiang, the first-class treatment the Chinese authorities were giving to us, hoping we would give a more positive view to the outside world about what Xinjiang is today and the situation for Uighurs.

I want to add one point, if I may. The Uighur issue is also a Muslim issue, apart from being a human rights issue. One suggestion I'd like to give to Canada and to Canadian politicians is that we should also approach Muslim countries. What the Chinese are doing, a thing I describe in my articles and what the Chinese authorities told us when we were there, is that the aim of the Chinese authorities is to eradicate Islam. They have closed mosques, destroyed mosques. If a person who is under 60 years old is caught practising Islam without a licence, meaning if you want to pray to God you have to go to local party officials to get a licence for praying to your God.... The Chinese are targeting Islam because they see this ideology as threatening their process of sinification. Therefore, I believe that, apart from western democracies, we should also approach Muslim countries.

You have to know something after all—

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

I'm so sorry, I'm going to cut you off. I have one more question and not a lot of time.

12:05 p.m.

Professor and Journalist, As an Individual

Dr. Olsi Jazexhi

Fine. I'm sorry.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Dr. Mahmut, you had recommended that Canada look at asylum options. We've heard in the past first-hand testimony from witnesses who talked about surveillance of the Uighur community in China but also here in Canada as well. What would the implications be if Canada were to extend asylum, etc.?

How would that conflict with or how would we as a country work around the surveillance and the protection of the Uighur community here in Canada and abroad?

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, International Support for Uyghurs

Dr. Raziya Mahmut

That's an excellent question. Thank you, Iqra.

Yes, we're under very tight surveillance. Right now we can't bring our people, our family or anybody in another country. It's a fact. However, we have more than 30,000 Uighurs fleeing all over the country, all over the world, specifically in Turkey. We can give them asylum to bring them back here. We can do it right now directly for the people staying and suffering in the concentration camps. For the 30,000 Uighurs fleeing, they are stateless, staying all over Turkey, in the Middle East and even in Thailand, everywhere. We can give them—

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

Now we will move for five minutes to the vice-chair of this committee and the impetus for our hearings. We should thank Mr. David Sweet.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thanks, Chair.

Dr. Olsi Jazexhi made a great point. I hope we take that into consideration. I am certain that if you trace the issue with the Rohingya in Burma, you'll find Chinese Community Party money manipulating the Burmese government as well, persecuting the Rohingya Muslims there, as well as the same here with Uighur Muslims. There's no doubt in my mind.

Chair, this will sound like I'm going wide but I'm going to go narrow quickly.

Dr. Kovalio, Mao Zedong, through the Cultural Revolution, through the Great Leap Forward, through numerous purges, through the Hundred Flowers, was responsible for tens of millions of deaths of Han Chinese and minorities. Xi Jinping seems to me to be the leader who best replicates Mao Zedong these days. Would you agree with that, Dr. Kovalio?

12:10 p.m.

Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual

Jacob Kovalio

Yes, Mr. Sweet. I appreciate your question; it's very pertinent.

I'd like to reply to your very thoughtful question by saying that it's all our fault. We in the west have, without second thought that I'm aware of, agreed to conduct normal relations, not only economic but also political, with a regime, the core thinker and founder of which is without any doubt the worst, most genocidal leader in the second half of the 20th century and even earlier than that, whose picture adorns Tiananmen Square and is splattered on bank notes, without thinking even for a moment. The way I look at it at least, there is some kind of a disconnect there.

How do we conduct regular relations with a regime that embodies genocide, first of all of its own people, for goodness sake, in the Great Leap Forward in the so-called Cultural Revolution, and in “smaller numbers” in 1989 Tiananmen? Now, because of this terrible pandemic, the origin of which is in Wuhan without any doubt and hit us, maybe we'll start thinking in deeper ways as to how to reappraise and change very significantly our relationship with the Chinese regime.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Thanks, Dr. Kovalio.

I have to circle back because I want to make a point for my colleagues.

12:10 p.m.

Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

With this being the case, we can only expect, Dr. Zenz, that the persecution against Uighurs will get worse in the days ahead, from what we've seen in the evidence from 2018 till now as well as the profile of the leader that we have. Would you agree with that, Dr. Zenz, or would you have some other comment on it?

12:10 p.m.

Senior Fellow in China Studies, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

Adrian Zenz

That depends on your definition of “worse”.

It is my opinion that China's plan is to break and assimilate the Uighurs. In this way, I believe it is distinct from the Nazi plan to obliterate and eradicate the Jews. However, Beijing's plan to subjugate and assimilate the Uighurs does involve higher mortality, higher deaths, torture, brutal population control and possibly even population reduction to an unknown extent.

The problem is, if their plans are failing or if their plans don't turn out as expected, there's always a possibility that things end up even worse than that. They are capable of doing anything and are very, very ruthless. As a result, the situation is extremely concerning. I would agree with that.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

Dr. Zenz, have you seen the video of the Uighur men zip-tied, hooded in some cases, beside the train tracks with the guards, which the BBC has just recently said they verified with western security sources?

12:15 p.m.

Senior Fellow in China Studies, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON

What does that say to you about the treatment of Uighurs at this point now?

12:15 p.m.

Senior Fellow in China Studies, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation

Adrian Zenz

Hundreds of thousands of Uighurs have been and are being sentenced to long-term prison terms to get them out of the way, especially culturally, and academics, musicians, artists, educators and translators would be among those.

There's a long-term plan to shift people into prisons and different prison systems in coercive labour and a bunch of them are not going to make it. Others are being shifted into vocational internment camps and into forced labour, so we have a complicated situation and these kinds of gruesome prison transfers. What you saw were detainees from the Kashgar detention centre who were being shifted from Kashgar to Korla. This is normality in Xinjiang. It's a police state. People are being shifted, and they're being shifted to places—

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

Mr. Zuberi, you have five minutes.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for testifying about this very important issue, all parliamentarians for taking the time to study this matter and those listening.

I want to ask a question that picks up from a colleague who asked about the difference in terms of information that we have today and the information from 2018 when we studied this matter as a committee. What is the difference in terms of the information we have?

From what I understand—and maybe you can flesh this out some more—up until 2018, we had anecdotal information. Survivors of the concentration camps came forth to speak. In that period I understand there was the consortium of journalists that came forth and published the leaked documents from the CCP, and those documents showed that a program was in place.

Maybe Dr. Zenz, Dr. Kovalio and Dr. Mahmut and others can comment on this, please.