Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on July 20th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

We had Kamila, but I think we've lost her right now. Hopefully we will get her again soon.

I did have a mishap as we were going through this round, and I apologize.

We will go to Mr. Zuberi, now, for seven minutes—oh, one second, Mr. Zuberi.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

No problem. That's fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Kamila, can you hear us? Can you please unmute?

[Kamila Talendibaevai, Uighur Rights Activist, As an Individual]

Hello.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Good. Kamila, we will hear your statement now, please.

[Kamila Talendibaevai]

Thank you.

First of all, I want to thank all of you for giving me the opportunity to speak about the Uighur people's rights, and especially my husband's case. It has been 14 years. As Chris said, it's been a long 14 years. Maybe lots of people, members of Parliament, are aware of that case, and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I have to interject really quickly, Kamila. I apologize. Can you hear me?

For interpretation, it's very difficult right now. We're asking for unanimous consent to do it in English. Would that be okay?

I see unanimous consent.

Kamila, please continue. Thank you.

[Kamila Talendibaevai]

I was saying to you that we had to extend our visit in 2006 in Uzbekistan, and that same year, in July, he was deported to China. Chinese courts ordered him to be deported to China, and now, since 2006, I've had no communication, no mail and no calls from him. You know, it's been 14 years.

I have been keeping in touch with his family two or three times a year since it began in 2014. Since 2016 I have lost communication with his family in East Turkestan. His family lives in the city of Kashgar. They used to come every six months to visit him in Urumqi.

He doesn't have consular access, and he's never been approved for consular access, which we keep asking for every year from the Canadian ambassador. You know, we have to check his health, how he's doing, if he's alive, how he is doing in the prison in China. We didn't get any answers. We were getting little by little, you know, every six months, a little information about his family, from his family. Right now, how many years is it now? It's four or five years, and I don't have any communication, no information. I cannot call their phones or WeChat, WhatsApp, as those kinds of apps are blocked. I don't have any information from his family.

It seems when we can't change his case...I don't have anything to say. It's very frustrating. You know, it's been 14 years I've been bearing a big strain and then the biggest frustration.

I have four boys. They have grown up. They became teenagers. They're all in high school. They are preparing for university. It's been very difficult. I cannot describe in one or two words my last 14 years and what I went through in these 14 years.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you very much, Kamila. Thank you for sharing your story of hardship and what you've gone through over the last 14 years. Thank you.

[Kamila Talendibaevai]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Now we are going to move to our next member to ask questions. Go ahead, Mr. Zuberi.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I want to thank all the panellists for their strength and testimony here today. It's very touching to hear you and to see you and to see the emotion come through on the camera. Thank you for this.

I wanted to highlight a point that was made by Huseyin Celil's lawyer, Mr. MacLeod. I think it got slightly lost, but we hear media reports that the Chinese government frequently says that Huseyin Celil is only a Chinese national, whereas according to the nationality law of the People's Republic of China, articles 3 and 9 together say.... First, article 3 says, “...China does not recognize dual nationality.” Article 9 says that when somebody has adopted another nationality or been naturalized outside of China, then they automatically lose their Chinese nationality.

Just for the record, I want us to establish that Huseyin Celil is in fact only Canadian, not a Chinese national right now, according to China's own law. I want to highlight this point because we often hear our Canadian officials saying that Huseyin Celil is, according to the Chinese, a Chinese national, whereas in fact by China's own laws he's a Canadian national.

I want to ask this to both Kamila and Mr. MacLeod: Is there anything that you have seen different, in terms of the circumstances globally or internationally with respect to China and the Uighur people, or locally within Canada since 2015 in terms of advocacy around Huseyin Celil's case? What can we do to strengthen advocacy for him, aside from what you mentioned with respect to a special envoy?

[Chris MacLeod]

I'll start, and then I'll turn it over to Kamila.

From 2015 onwards, we have the harsh hand of China against the Uighur minority, but we've also had more of a vacuum on the Canadian political front. The current government, in my submission, has not done all that it can, or enough. Much more needs to be done. A special envoy is number one, and number two, as much as possible, is bipartisanship across the House.

My point would be for the special envoy to do what our American friends to the south have done so often in the past: Utilize former heads of state in Canada. We have Prime Minister Chrétien, Prime Minister Harper, Prime Minister Mulroney and Prime Minister Martin, to name four who would be great special envoys. Former members of Parliament, whether Conservative, Liberal or New Democrat, may have had a prominent place and role in international human rights. Let's lean into our Canadian strengths and get a special envoy. Get one now. It's been 14 years.

I'll turn it over to Kamila, but to your point, he is a Canadian citizen. He flew on a Canadian passport, for crying out loud, with an Uzbek visa, so you nailed it. Chinese law itself says he's a Canadian and Canadian alone.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Have you thought of advocating the special envoy theme with respect to the two Michaels?

I personally don't know if there have been special envoys for specific individuals in the past from Canada for other similar cases. I'm wondering if you are advocating along that line. If there has been a precedent, then it would make sense.

[Chris MacLeod]

There has been. Prime Minister Harper appointed Jason Kenney, who was a sitting member of Parliament at the time, with the role to assist in and secure the release and return of Michael Kapoustin, who had been detained in Bulgaria for at least 14 years at the time. Ultimately, Michael Kapoustin's lawyer Dean Peroff, and Jason Kenney, effectively acting as a special envoy, obtained the release and return of Michael Kapoustin. There's one example, but there have been others.

In the case of Maher Arar, I believe that Senator De Bané was appointed as some level of special envoy, to some extent. I don't remember all the details around the file and Senator De Bané's appointment.

It certainly has occurred, and the appointment would be at the ambassador level. Could it be inclusive of the two Michaels and other Canadians? It would make sense that it might be. I believe that would warrant some thought.

I think particularly with Huseyin's case, since he has been detained for so long and has languished for so long, and with the overlay of the persecution of the Uighur community in northwestern China, we now have a double dose in requirement.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

I'll split my time with my colleague Anita.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

You have two minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you so much.

My question is for Ms. Sauytbay. You said something, when you were describing the horrific conditions in the camps, about sexual violence against the women in the camps, in addition to the sterilization. I wonder, if it's not too difficult, if you could elaborate a little bit about what those conditions are.

Of course, there are very many people who don't know what's happened to their family members. What do you think is the fate of the people who are still in those camps?

[Sayragul Sauytbay]

[Witness spoke in Kazakh, interpreted as follows:]

First of all, I'm very grateful for your question. I'll give you a little more detail about the sexual violence.

In the concentration camps, the Chinese Communist Party guards rape the women and girls they want. It's daily. They just come and pick up any woman they like and will bring her back the next day.

In one of the examples I remember, I was giving a lesson at a class on the Chinese language when they brought back a young lady. When she entered the class, she couldn't even sit on the chair. She just fell down on the floor. They started calling everyone by number. Every girl has a special number. They don't call them by their names; they call them by their numbers. When they called that girl by her number, she said, “I'm not a girl anymore, because they raped me.” I remember this very horrible situation.

I would like to give you another example. It's a very horrific example. One day the guards of the concentration camps brought about 200 people to the hall, and they were testing us. They made experiments. Every time they made experiments they checked to see if we changed our minds, if we become normal or not.

In this example, they brought 200 prisoners to the hall, and they picked out one young girl, about 20 years old, and they forced her to accept the guilt for something that she never had done. She was crying and she was saying that she was guilty even though she was not guilty. She accepted it in front of the 200 prisoners. Then the Chinese guards started raping her, one by one, in front of all these 200 prisoners. They went down the line and raped her one by one in front of all the people.

If some of these 200 prisoners showed pain on their faces or in their eyes, or hesitation or any negative emotion, they will say that this prisoner didn't change, didn't become normal, and they will pick these prisoners from the crowd and later they will start torturing them because they didn't change.

After we saw that, we had to accept it and we had to praise the party. This is one of the examples that I was a witness to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you again for your courage and that very difficult testimony.

This leads us to our last questioner, Ms. McPherson. You have seven minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It's very difficult to go after that testimony.

First of all, I want to thank all of you. I can't imagine what you have to go through, to not know where your father is, or where your husband is. Excuse me....

I'm incredibly moved by your bravery to be here and your bravery to share these stories. I'm sorry that you have to relive this pain by sharing this with us.

There are a few things I wanted to ask. One is for Kamila. I know that you are raising your family alone and that you have not been able to see your husband for 14 years, and you don't know where he is or how he is.

I know that Christopher MacLeod was able to talk a little bit about what Canada could do now and what we could do to help bring Mr. Celil home. I wonder if you wouldn't mind taking some time as well. I know we didn't get a moment to hear from you on what you would like to see Canada do now to help with your husband's case. I would really welcome hearing from you, if that's possible.

[Kamila Talendibaevai]

Yes. Thank you.

First of all, I'm raising four kids, four boys. They became teenagers. I was pregnant when they arrested my husband. I was three months pregnant, a mother. Can you imagine for a moment?

It's been 14 years, and now my son is going to be 14 in August. I can't see....

It's been so many long years. Months, weeks and years passed. Even if you had a communication, a little bit of information, like emails or calls through his family, that kind of information.... A little piece of information would be a relief to us, a little bit of keeping in touch with their father. He's still alive, but he's in prison. They are trying to bring him back where he belongs.

In this 21st century, with so much technology, we have nothing . We have no calls, no information, no mail, no letters, nothing.

But I'm very thankful for the Canadian government. I'm lucky I'm living in Canada. I'm growing my four boys [Inaudible—Editor] four boys in Canada. I'm giving all my best to give them a good education, the best education in Canada, but I always tell them they have to be very proud of their dad. He has spent 14 years away. I don't want to say how long he's going be there. I don't even want to think about one year or two years in this pandemic world with what's going on in China right now, because in Canada how we are living right now, in the pandemic....

To the Canadian government, first of all, I want to say thank you. They raised every opportunity. The Conservative board mandated all its best, but China is a different country. China was rejecting my husband's Canadian citizenship, and then not giving consular access. They tried, but it was not enough. At that time it was not enough. When they helped the first year, they had to act quickly, immediately, but they were late to act.

Now it's been 14 years. My husband is in prison. I don't know what kind of conditions he may be in. I cannot even.... We don't know if he's alive or not, since 2015. Maybe they have been brainwashing him with Communist laws, making him study Communist laws and join the Communist Party, that kind of thing. It might happen in China.

My last word is to the Conservatives, Liberals and NDP. They all need to be together in that case. I don't want them to push that case away from the table. There's the two Michaels case, I know, and I want to raise the case every time, to bring that to the table in the House of Commons. I want to raise that case. Members of Parliament, what's going on with that [Inaudible—Editor] case? What's going on? What are we going to do? They have to see it on the table and make the decision to send...I agree with Chris MacLeod to send a special envoy to China.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much. I'm sure your four sons, as you know, are very, very lucky to have a mother like you, who is working so hard for them and for their father.

[Kamila Talendibaevai]

It's so hard.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Sorry; what was that?