Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Can we have the minister respond to Mr. McKay's question in the first part of my time?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Reid.

The ombudsperson does have the tools she needs to operate. She said so here, when she testified before all of you at committee not that long ago. If a company does not act in good faith during her process, the CORE can recommend trade measures to me. She can also report publicly at various stages, at any stage, of her review.

That provides a reputational issue for the company. We can decline future financial support to the company, and we can absolutely withdraw trade advocacy. For the many companies that the international trade team and I work with, these are services that are incredibly valuable to businesses that are operating abroad.

Let me take a step back here—

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

I'm sorry, if you don't mind. I wanted to give you a chance to answer that question, not to take up all the time I have.

With regard to withdrawing tools, it seems to me the fundamental tools that a company has that it could potentially use, in a situation where it might be causing ongoing harm, are those that come through the securities commissions. There's a forensic exploration we could get into of previous practices, but presumably our goal is to prevent new practices that represent some form of human rights abuse.

If you're a company, like Nevsun, for example, and you want to float a new bond issue to support an expansion to your mining operation, you have to pass certain hurdles in terms of demonstrating that you have taken appropriate actions with regard to human rights, environmental stewardship and so on.

Wouldn't it make more sense to focus our attention on tightening up those restrictions, making sure they're more inclusive, and with that mechanism, you can't go ahead and get more funding from the private sector unless you have passed those scorecards?

Would that not be a more effective way of ensuring that no ongoing human rights abuses can take place at a mine site, textile factory or wherever?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I would agree with you that it's important that Canadian companies have a respect for human rights, and operate at those highest ethical standards. We really want CORE—and I believe the ombudsperson is well on her way and well resourced to do this—to absolutely do that work, helping Canadian companies be those good actors on the world stage.

There is quite a lot of work to be done here. My job, as international trade minister, is to help Canadian companies get out there and be global, grow the Canadian economy, create jobs, and in doing so, help them understand how to conduct business responsibly in that capacity.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

Wouldn't the best way of doing that be by putting conditions in place, so that the private sector has to have higher standards?

If you don't like what the securities commissions have in place now in terms of the restrictions they place on companies getting increased funding through bond issues, then why not work to get those standards increased, rather than taking the approach of having a parallel bureaucracy? Would that not make more sense?

As opposed to dealing with some kind of forensic issue, as to what might have happened in the first year that Nevsun was set up—to use that example again—in terms of ongoing practices and ongoing potential for future problems, would that not be the best way of doing it?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Responsible business conduct is codified in many great companies, particularly those that have a high standard for responsible business conduct codified in their policies and procedures. This is exactly what CORE will be doing, working with companies to make sure they have really strong good governance, strong respect for sustainability and strong respect for human rights.

In fact, I met a really terrific company not that long ago that's actually winning awards all over the place for its high standards for responsible business conduct. The aim is to create lasting benefits for employees, customers, societies and the communities in which they operate.

Do you know why doing that is actually good for the company? It's good, because it attracts high quality investors. This role is very important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Minister.

We're going to move over now to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe for another five minutes, after which we'll have one more questioner and then we will be done.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll follow up on Mr. Reid's point. The ombudsperson's mandate refers to the need to “advise Canadian companies on their policies and practices with respect to responsible business conduct.”

We just spoke a little bit about this. However, Minister Ng, do you really think that a company that employs mercenaries to shoot down activists will call the ombudsperson?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

The ombudsperson will be doing that outreach and that considered work with our Canadian companies. Building that capacity for companies, helping them understand what good, responsible business practice is [Technical difficulty—Editor] de-risk any risk that might come from not having such good practices in their companies is what she will be doing. She will be doing that with Canadian companies.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Perhaps the issue lies elsewhere, Minister Ng.

Ms. Meyerhoffer admitted to us that she has fewer than 10 people on her team, and she couldn't clarify her budget when she came here.

Am I crazy to think that 10 employees don't amount to many resources for the number of Canadian mining companies abroad?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Well, I'm very pleased that in the creation of this office our government has committed to providing it with resources, certainly more resources than the function that existed before. In the budget of 2018, we committed $6.8 million over a six-year period, and then $1.26 million thereafter. This year, I have approved in-year increases for her to increase her staff—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Sorry, Minister Ng. I really don't have much time, unfortunately. I don't mean to be disrespectful by interrupting you. I just want to ask my questions.

Do you know how many Canadian mining companies there are solely in Mexico, one of our largest economic partners?

I can tell you. There are 200 Canadian mining companies in Mexico alone. When I look at this quickly, what stands out is that there aren't many people for such a large number of companies. Right now, given the number of Canadian companies abroad, the ombudsperson's reach really isn't broad enough. We can see that the ombudsperson doesn't have any coercive power, which was promised a few years ago.

Let's say that I'm a person who lives in an area where a Canadian mining company operates a mine. If I'm tired of seeing protesters being beaten up by the police, or if I want to complain about the only source of water being polluted, how do I go about contacting the ombudsperson?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Of course, the ombudsperson works on her own, but she also works with an incredible collection of others, whether it's industry associations or NGOs. In the last year, a little over a year, she has spent her time consulting with over 200 external stakeholders so that she can create those very important partnerships to complement and to work with her. That same network—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Sorry, but I'll repeat my question.

If I live in Mexico, for example, and I'm being harmed by a mining company, what should I do? What steps should I take?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

She is exactly working on that right now. Of course, the portal for complaints is open. Her creation of this network, the promotion of the CORE's existence, working with the collection of non-governmental organizations as well as associations and industry associations really to be able to promote the efforts of the CORE and the existence of the CORE is what she is doing. She is very committed to that accessibility.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Once the complaint is submitted through the portal, what happens?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

She will assess it and undertake her work, which would include opening a file and undertaking the work.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I imagine that she'll advise you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Does the legislation require you to follow her advice?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe, your time is up.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay. We could talk about this for a long time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Minister, this will be the last questioner.

We have Ms. McPherson for five minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, I'm just going to quote from the McIsaac report very quickly for you. It says, “it is fair to say that without a way to compel the cooperation of entities against which a complaint is made or others who may hold relevant information, the CORE's effectiveness may be compromised.”

We've also heard from the CORE, Ms. Meyerhoffer, on Global News. She does feel she could be more effective if she had extended powers. She has said that publicly.

I'm interested in knowing what the rationale would be for not giving the CORE the ability to compel testimony and witnesses. We know that Canadian companies that are adhering to good practice wouldn't care because they would not be compelled or complained against, but bad companies would care.

Why are you sticking up for bad Canadian companies that are not adhering to human rights? Why not give that power to compel testimony and witnesses? What is the rationale for that?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Let me be clear. I expect Canadian companies to uphold human rights. I expect companies to be good actors on the global stage. I believe that the CORE has the tools and the resources that she needs.

It is also new. I've said already that with any new program, we will be absolutely open to review this, given the sufficient time for it to do its work.

I am very confident in the work that Ms. Meyerhoffer is going to do. I am looking forward to her starting and accelerating this work. This office is an important one. It's an important one in the context of the suite of work that this government is doing around the world. Inclusive trade is one; feminist international policy is another.