Evidence of meeting #16 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was core.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Aymara León Cépeda  Sociologist and Human Rights Coordinator, Peru, Subgroup of oil spills, Platform of Amazonian Indigenous Peoples United in Defense of their Territory (PUINAMUDT)
Ken Neumann  National Director for Canada, National Office, United Steelworkers
Doug Olthuis  Department Leader, Global Affairs and Workplace Issues, United Steelworkers
Clemente Bautista  International Network Coordinator, Kalikasan People's Network for the Environment
Mark Agnew  Vice-President, Policy and International, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Lisa McDonald  Executive Director, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada
Margareta Dovgal  Task Force For Real Jobs, Real Recovery
Pierre Gratton  President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kenny Chiu Conservative Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Are other foreign companies operating in that space?

6:55 p.m.

Sociologist and Human Rights Coordinator, Peru, Subgroup of oil spills, Platform of Amazonian Indigenous Peoples United in Defense of their Territory (PUINAMUDT)

Aymara León Cépeda

Yes, other lots are operated by Dutch companies, Argentinian companies.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kenny Chiu Conservative Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Your organization also monitors them, and we have not heard similar offences from you or recorded by you.

6:55 p.m.

Sociologist and Human Rights Coordinator, Peru, Subgroup of oil spills, Platform of Amazonian Indigenous Peoples United in Defense of their Territory (PUINAMUDT)

Aymara León Cépeda

The organizations I work with do the surveillance basically in two oil lots, lot 192 and lot 8, which is operated by Pluspetrol. The number you mentioned earlier, the 1,209 impacted sites that indigenous monitors have helped discover, is in both of these lots, but mainly in lot 192 because it's the lot that these monitoring programs have worked the longest.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kenny Chiu Conservative Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Okay.

Other than environmental impacts, from what you have tabled to the committee, it seems already a pretty severe and bad impact on the indigenous community there, but other than the environmental nature, has there been any other human rights-related report against the Canadian company?

6:55 p.m.

Sociologist and Human Rights Coordinator, Peru, Subgroup of oil spills, Platform of Amazonian Indigenous Peoples United in Defense of their Territory (PUINAMUDT)

Aymara León Cépeda

Yes. What we also talk about in this investigation that we did with the support of Oxfam is how the social conflicts have increased in these oil lots because of Frontera's way of managing these social conflicts and their conflicting practices with the indigenous organizations.

We have reported to our own ombudsperson here in Peru that during the COVID pandemic Frontera left the indigenous communities without payment for the work they had done for Frontera Energy and they also stopped providing the social programs that should have continued during the pandemic.

Another thing the indigenous organizations have reported during the COVID-19 pandemic is that the indigenous organizations requested Frontera to allow the oxygen plant that is located in the lot to function as a medical oxygen plant in the context of COVID. Frontera Energy's response was they would only turn on the oxygen plant if they were allowed to restart the whole operation in the lot, which puts a condition on access to health for the operation of the lot.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Kenny Chiu Conservative Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Thank you.

Has the presence of these foreign corporations led to any improvement in the lives of the local communities? You mentioned that Frontera has not lived up to the obligations they promised, but have they been able to bring positive changes to the community?

7 p.m.

Sociologist and Human Rights Coordinator, Peru, Subgroup of oil spills, Platform of Amazonian Indigenous Peoples United in Defense of their Territory (PUINAMUDT)

Aymara León Cépeda

What is normally argued is that because of oil operations the state gets some revenues that could be invested in projects such as building schools or other types of projects that could be implemented in the communities. Unfortunately, the amount that is destined for community development is not enough for them to build a hospital or contribute to projects that could significantly change their opportunities and their conditions. So yes, social funds go to them, but they are not enough to make an impact.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Kenny Chiu Conservative Steveston—Richmond East, BC

In the remaining 30 seconds I have, is the amended improved CORE mandate the only way to receive the kind of justice you hope for? Could a litigation approach be taken?

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

We are going to have to hold onto that question for another round.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Kenny Chiu Conservative Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Thank you, Chair.

7 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

You're welcome.

We are moving to the Bloc.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you may go ahead. You have seven minutes.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My sincerest thanks to the witnesses for being with us this evening.

We have spent two months studying the ombudsperson's role, and this evening, we have an opportunity to get answers to questions that have gone unanswered up to now.

Ms. Cépeda, I want you to know that Canadians and Quebeckers should hear stories like yours more often because, unfortunately, they don't always know what is going on outside the country. Thank you for being here. Your contribution is extremely important, and your comments are now on the record.

You talked about Frontera Energy. To your knowledge, did Canadian authorities offer to help gather information in relation to Frontera Energy's corporate responsibility? Are you aware of any such assistance?

7 p.m.

Sociologist and Human Rights Coordinator, Peru, Subgroup of oil spills, Platform of Amazonian Indigenous Peoples United in Defense of their Territory (PUINAMUDT)

Aymara León Cépeda

No. Indigenous organizations have not received any kind of aid or help from the Canadian government to date in their search for justice, or in the case of lot 192.

What indigenous organizations have done is to address Frontera Corporation, not Frontera Energy in Peru but Frontera Corporation, recently with a letter for Frontera as a corporation to respond for the damages that their branch in Peru has caused.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you.

My next question, you can answer given what you know of the situation.

Had the Canadian ombudsperson had greater powers, that is, the powers we have long been calling for, would Frontera Energy have been able to do what it did?

7 p.m.

Sociologist and Human Rights Coordinator, Peru, Subgroup of oil spills, Platform of Amazonian Indigenous Peoples United in Defense of their Territory (PUINAMUDT)

Aymara León Cépeda

No. Definitely we believe the pressure and the public image of oil companies is very important for them. When we have pronouncements or statements from public entities or from government entities, we do believe change can made. If we had a proper investigation and a proper public report that would have the evidence of what Frontera is doing with these indigenous communities, we believe their public image would be affected and they could have more pressure into complying with the Peruvian environmental norms that would then impact the indigenous people's rights.

7 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Before I turn to the other witnesses, I have one last question for you, Ms. Cépeda.

You are someone with expertise in this area, so your answer and your remarks will certainly be insightful. What you say today will be taken into account, helping to inform the committee's report.

Many Canadians and Quebeckers see Canada as a human rights leader. I will not go so far as to call it the worst offender in the world, but I don't think its record is as good as everyone thinks.

Given your experience in Peru with Amazonian indigenous populations, how do the Canadian companies operating on your territory rank against companies from other countries? The same, worse or much worse?

7:05 p.m.

Sociologist and Human Rights Coordinator, Peru, Subgroup of oil spills, Platform of Amazonian Indigenous Peoples United in Defense of their Territory (PUINAMUDT)

Aymara León Cépeda

In the case of these organizations, unfortunately, I'm sorry to say it this way, but I'll just put it in numbers.

In 15 years, Pluspetrol Corporation had 116 spills in the same lot. That is in 15 years. Pluspetrol is not a responsible company and we have denounced their practices. However, in five years, Frontera had 90 spills. That is almost the same amount as Pluspetrol in 15 years.

They are doing the same as their previous operator. They're leaving the country without taking any responsibility for what they have done in these communities. Therefore, I'm afraid I cannot say that this Canadian company has done any better than the other operators we have seen in this territory. That is why we believe in the importance of these kinds of spaces and trying to improve the mechanisms that indigenous organizations can access for their rights to be respected.

7:05 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Ms. Cépeda.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

You have a minute and 10 seconds.

7:05 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I'll be quick, then.

Mr. Neumann, when the ombudsperson appeared before the committee, she told us that she had sufficient resources but didn't provide details about her office's funding. In the recent budget, the government pledged to increase CORE's funding by $16 million over five years, and $3.3 million per year ongoing. You touched on this earlier, but I'd like you to provide some clarification.

Do you think the issue comes down to resources, funding or powers?

7:05 p.m.

National Director for Canada, National Office, United Steelworkers

Ken Neumann

Thank you for that question.

I think, as I said in my testimony, it's not a matter of money; it's a matter of power.

You still have an ineffective office, and if you just give it more money and don't give it the power, nothing really changes. You hit the nail on the head that it's about the power. What I've never figured out is that in 2018 we were destined to go where we're asking to go today, and all of a sudden there has been a reversal of that.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you, Mr. Neumann.

7:05 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you.

7:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Now we're moving to the NDP for seven minutes.

Ms. McPherson.