Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 20th, 2021

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would think that you do not think the companies should be the ones providing the scrutiny or oversight of their own operations.

[Clemente Bautista]

Yes, of course. We have a lot of experience in the Philippines asking for information, but we get nothing from them. Collaborative action with the companies is okay, but more importantly, there should be an independent investigative mechanism with a process that does not allow the companies or even the government to take advantage to promote their interests, particularly their mining operations. In the Philippines—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you so much for that answer.

Mr. Gratton, we've spoken before, and I have questions for you. My biggest concern here is that I don't understand why, if companies are acting appropriately, like guests, as we heard, there would be opposition to having oversight. I'm going to ask you a few questions on this, if you don't mind.

I'm going to list some companies, and I'd like to know whether they are members of MAC. They are OceanaGold, Frontera Energy, B2Gold, Barrick Gold, Placer Dome and TVI Pacific.

[Pierre Gratton]

OceanaGold is not. Placer doesn't exist anymore, nor does, I think, TVI. Barrick is. They have a mine in Canada. B2Gold is. The others are not.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

For the ones that are not members of your association, you have no ability to utilize standards that you have, because they're not your members. They're not actually interested in the standards that you have.

The ones that are your members have been named today during the testimony in this panel and the one prior, and they are named as not being good actors on the world stage. Therefore, I wonder what the impact of your members not being good actors on the world stage has for those member organizations of MAC that are good actors.

What's the impact on those good players, those good corporate citizens, when there are Canadian companies that are abusing human rights, abusing the environment and abusing indigenous communities? What's the impact on the good mining companies?

[Pierre Gratton]

Of course, we all want to raise the bar. That's what we're trying to do through TSM, to raise the bar for everyone, but we can only do what we can do.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

However, it's not compulsory. It doesn't have to happen internationally and it doesn't apply to companies that aren't your members.

[Pierre Gratton]

As other jurisdictions adopt it, it starts to get taken up by more and more, and it starts to apply to more and more. We do what we can.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

How long will it be for Mr. Bautista and his community? How long will it be until communities improve? How long are communities in Nicaragua and communities in Ecuador expected to wait for you to develop those programs?

[Pierre Gratton]

I am not suggesting in any way that TSM is a replacement for government oversight. I'm not suggesting that at all. We were describing what we have done as Canadians, which I think is laudable because even though there are more powerful mining jurisdictions in the world, no other jurisdiction, none of them....

Even the Australians have now adopted our program, even though they're a far bigger mining—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

As an Albertan, I can say the Australians are not impressing me with their mining practices at the moment, thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you. That will conclude our time.

On behalf of the committee, I thank our witnesses for appearing, for taking the time. We appreciate the answers you've given us to our questions. At this time, you are free to go. Thank you very much.

Members, next Tuesday will be our final CORE meeting. We'll get a preliminary draft and instructions then to the analysts, and there you have it.

Thank you very much for all you did tonight. I know we're a little past time at 8:33, but I thought it was a good meeting and we are going to adjourn now.

Thank you very much, everyone.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

I didn't see a hand up.

Mr. Chiu.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I did have my virtual hand up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Yes. I just saw it now.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I just have a comment regarding the agenda that was set for today. It was changed several times, and in the final version, we did not have Kalikasan being there. I just checked the notice of meeting.

We were planning our time allocations because of that. It's awfully difficult when you have so many witnesses coming in and only giving them so little time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Mr. Chiu, you're right.

We did try our best. We tried to get Kalikasan into the first panel. That was not possible due to technical difficulties, so we brought them into the second panel.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Unfortunately, they were not listed in the final notice of meeting. I just want to bring it to your attention. Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Okay. Thank you very much. It's noted.

The meeting is adjourned.