Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 4th, 2021

[Ai-Men Lau]

First and foremost, the protest movement was a peaceful protest movement. It was one that was also arguing for the universal suffrage that was enshrined in the Sino-British Joint Declaration.

We need to dispel this idea that this was a lawless riot. It was not. That is something which I believe is a common narrative pushed by the CCP. More so, it is fairly misunderstood among the Canadian society.

We need to understand, as I mentioned in a previous answer, that this has been a long, ongoing fight. This is not new. Because of the 2019...it was a breaking point. It was a boiling point.

I think we need to dispel this myth. I think we need to push back hard.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

My second question is for Mr. Chan.

Mr. Chan, a lot of people here in Canada believe that the Hong Kong matter is a Chinese sovereignty matter. It's a sovereign territory of China; therefore, it's none of western countries'—like Canada—business.

What's your view on that?

[Albert Wai Yip Chan]

It is not a cultural or regional difference. The crimes committed by the Hong Kong and Chinese governments are crimes against humanity. The international court of human rights can take those cases. You know, these two sovereignties are members of those covenants. Unfortunately, both China and Hong Kong are not members.

If you look at the so-called crimes committed by those activists—and I said earlier that I had been indicted and convicted on numerous occasions in Hong Kong in the past few years—the activities that I have done are similar to those I did before the transfer of sovereignty, so I didn't do anything particularly wrong or different in terms of political activity. However, in the past few years, they became crimes in Hong Kong.

For those crimes that I committed before I left, as compared to those being sentenced now, it's outrageous. I was being penalized $4,000 for those crimes, whereas some of these people have been sentenced to three years in jail for similar activities. The whole political and legal system has totally changed.

Now Hong Kong is similar to Nazi Germany in the 1930s. That is why I think the Canadian people and the Canadian government should treat this differently.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chan.

I want to turn the angle a little bit. You mentioned the United Front in western countries like Canada. Canada perhaps is no better, if not worse, being influenced by the United Front Work, but then later on in your answer to one of the committee members you were saying that you did not experience personally any interference or any threats.

How could you make such a statement that Canada is being influenced, perhaps even worse, while you didn't experience that personally? How did you experience this interference or the influence that you were labelling?

[Albert Wai Yip Chan]

I haven't been active at all in the past four years since I returned to Canada. I live a retired life.

I should point out that back in the 1980s when I was in Canada, I was in the first group of people who entertained the first ambassador from China to Canada. We had a welcome party for them. I have seen that some of the people involved at that time have changed their stance and have also become more friendly to the Chinese government. In my 30 years in politics in Hong Kong, I have seen individuals, groups and society change from the work of the United Front on them.

When you see how people perform, how people react, you can see quite clearly that their actions and activities are related to the influence of the Chinese government. I didn't have direct contact with many groups and people here, but if you look at the Chinese media in Canada, I do believe that 90% of that is manipulated or controlled by the Chinese government, directly or indirectly. It's quite clear, without any doubt in my mind.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

My fourth question is for Mr. Goodman.

Mr. Goodman, some people in Canada might think that Canada has done enough. We have suspended the extradition treaty. We have stopped selling military equipment. We have opened up lifeboats for Hong Kongers. In fact, this very subcommittee has been sanctioned by the People's Republic of China's foreign ministry. So, haven't we done enough?

[Sam Goodman]

I think Canada has done a lot, and I think we appreciate that the Canadian government has acted. It has introduced the lifeboat scheme that targets young Hong Kongers.

Really, I suppose what we're talking about is whether Canada is willing to act in unison with like-minded partners, including the U.K., including the U.S.A., including our partners in Europe and perhaps Australia as well. By no means do we think that Canada should be leading the charge on Magnitsky sanctions alone. In fact, really, I think the country that should be leading on that is the U.K., given that the U.K. is the signatory to the Sino-British Joint Declaration.

The message that should be coming from the Canadian government to the U.K. government is that if they do go ahead with the Magnitsky sanctions, Canada will be there with them. I think we saw that with the recent sanctions against Chinese officials regarding persecution of the Uighurs. That's really what I think we're talking about here: Is Canada doing stuff with its allies?

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you.

We'll move now to MP Brunelle-Duceppe for seven minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My heartfelt thanks to the witnesses for being here. I think it is very brave of them to speak out against tyranny. I know they have done so before in other forums. One of the priorities of this committee is the safety of those who agree to testify.

I have a hypothetical question for Ms. Siu. Ms. Lau may also answer it afterwards.

Are you afraid of reprisals from the Chinese Communist Party simply because you are appearing before the committee this evening?

[Ai-Men Lau]

I'll let Ms. Siu go first.

[Joey Siu]

Thank you, Ms. Lau.

Yes, I mean, basically everything we say here before the [Technical difficulty—Editor] simply by participating in protests and rallies elsewhere in the free world countries. Different Hong Kongers or different people who have been participating in similar kinds of defence face the risk of being charged under the national security legislation if they're ever to step inside Hong Kong or other parts of China. Definitely, this is one of the very large concerns. This is also a concern and risk faced by the Canadian Hong Kongers in Hong Kong or those Canadian Hong Kongers who are willing to go back to Hong Kong but because of their participation in or support for Hong Kong's free democracy structure, they can no longer do that.

[Ai-Men Lau]

I'll say, first and foremost, that, yes, I am terrified. I do have family and loved ones back home in Hong Kong. When I first started getting involved in my activism for Hong Kong, I was a little bullheaded and a little arrogant. I didn't exactly know what I'd gotten myself into. Now a year later, I'm kind of not sure where I stand. I've imposed a self-exile on myself. I will no longer return to Hong Kong, and this is something that I know many of my other friends have done as well.

I would recommend to this committee that if you want to hear more from Hong Kongers in Canada.... The fear is real. I'd recommend being able to have people testify anonymously or have a representative testify on behalf of them in these meetings, because the community is terrified. We self-censor for sure. It has caused a lot of emotional turmoil and conflicts in my own life.

Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you so much, Ms. Lau and Ms. Siu. It's hard to hear those words. We are trying to understand, but we are not in your shoes.

You represent organizations that defend the rights of those who live in Hong Kong, and I think you have contacts there. Do you have any contact with the activists who were arrested in January under the national security law?

This question is for all the witnesses. Perhaps someone can tell us whether they had any contact with those who were arrested in January.

[Joey Siu]

Yes, I personally know many of the 47 who were prosecuted under the national security legislation on suspicion of suppression of state simply because of their participation in the democratic primaries in Hong Kong. I even campaigned for one of the candidates. Obviously, because they're behind bars right now and also because of the risk posed by the national security legislation in Hong Kong, I can no longer keep in touch with them, because that would further lead them to being charged with, potentially, colluding with foreign forces or other serious criminal offences under the national security law.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

How many, approximately?

Do you know how many people were arrested in January and are still behind bars?

[Joey Siu]

There were 47 arrested under the national security legislation in February 2021 for participating in the democratic primaries, and 36 of them are still behind bars right now.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to ask Mr. Chan a question about his personal experience.

What do you think is the ultimate objective of the government of the People's Republic of China regarding Hong Kong?

[Albert Wai Yip Chan]

When Xi Jinping's thoughts were incorporated into the Chinese constitution, he wanted to change Hong Kong completely. He wanted to change Hong Kong to Shanghai as in 1951. He eradicated all the opposition and wanted to erase all western influence. Everything will be under one party rule, period, with no opposition, no dissension and no western or outside influence. This is Xi Jinping's way of thinking in controlling Hong Kong.

The Canadian government has to be conscious of the 300,000 Canadians in Hong Kong. Sooner or later, those people have to be rescued one way or the other. Their property, their life and their interests have to be looked into as well. It is a crisis and we have to take action early.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

My time is almost up. I wish this study would last longer.

What is the current state of the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong?

This question is for all the witnesses.

Mr. Goodman, we haven't heard from you yet. Do you have any comments?

[Sam Goodman]

As Ms. Siu has said, nearly all the leading pro-democracy activists are either in jail awaiting trial or in exile abroad. The pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong, it's fair to say, is on its last legs.

My understanding of it is that one of the few pro-democracy activists who isn't in jail will be in jail by this time in August. Fundamentally, the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong will have to transition from a local movement to a broader, international movement, which we are starting to see.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I have no time left, but I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your testimony. It is very important. It will be part of our report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Brunelle-Duceppe.

We're now moving to MP McPherson for seven minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I echo my colleague Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe when he thanked all of you for being here and for showing the bravery to share your stories with us.

Hearing the testimony that the community is self-silencing because of the fears they feel and knowing the risk that you take for being here, it means an awful lot to us. We will take your testimony very seriously because we recognize both the seriousness of the situation and the risk that you take in sharing it with us.

Thank you very much.

Please know that we recognize the impact that this has on all of you. We are very grateful that you're willing to share with us today.

I want to start with some questions for Ms. Lau.

We've seen a change in the direction of focus with the international response to what's happening in Hong Kong. There is a shift towards, as you mentioned, the institutional overhaul of the electoral system, education system, immigration bans and whatnot, but the human rights violations that have happened during the protest movement are continuing to happen. We've heard time and time again during the testimony this evening that we're now overlooking that protest movement, yet those human rights abuses are still happening.

Can you talk about what you would like Canadians to know about what is happening in Hong Kong with regard to human rights abuses?

[Ai-Men Lau]

I would also encourage this committee to read our written submission. We have anonymous testimony from Hong Kongers in appendix C that can also help illustrate what is going on, on the ground.

One thing that everyone should know is that it has transformed from anger to despair, to now fear. No one knows how the national security law and the immigration ban is going to be implemented in Hong Kong, and that has created a climate of fear. With what people have seen as inaction on the ground, it also seems to have created a climate of impunity where the Chinese regime should just take over because no one is doing anything.

They are struggling with everything that we have also struggled with globally, an economic downturn and the pandemic as well. For the protest movement, I would say it has gone underground but the resistance still remains. Because of their love for the city, people are still resisting what is happening. I will echo Mr. Goodman's comments that it has gone global and we're starting to see that shift.

In terms of the human rights violations, I will highlight that it has been two years. People are asking and have been yelling for help for two years now. We need to act.